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I don't post here too much, but i read and sometime i get angry at some of the posts i see.
As a photographer, I would like to show you with a pie-chart what goes into business of Wedding photography. I understand a lot of brides question high prices, so let me break it down for you.
Do you think we spend 8-10 hours shooting your wedding and we're done? Think again! Shooting your wedding is actually a very small part of our business. The rest is our TIME is to run a SUCCESSFUL business, and success doesn't really come "cheap".
This is not just about photography, this can be related to any business that you want to run and succeed at. If you are a business person at all, you will understand.
Good post. I think a lot of people don't realize how long editing can take. I'm no pro (yet) but I shot a wedding last weekend as a favor and for a 4 hour total wedding it took me a week of working on editing every night to get it done!
I'm in agreement! The pros I know certainly aren't living large off of their practice.
Yes! It frustrates me so much to see brides railing against how much photography costs. Just goes to show that we could all stand to be better educated on where the money goes when we hire vendors!
Thank you so much for this post! I recently expressed my take on this in another thread: http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/i-am-over-wedding-photography-packages
I love using WB as a tool to educate brides on photography and help them make informed decisions for their wedding day!
Yes LB i saw that post, it was getting too long so i decided to make a point with a new one LOL. :)
I think a lot of photography costs are warranted, but don't you think some of your pie chart should be considered the cost of doing business and not necessarily time that a client should pay for in a pass through expense?
For example, I also own my own business (not wedding related, science related) and my marketing, meetings, invoicing, networking/blogging, etc. are all just the cost of doing business for me. I can't and don't expect to recoup those fees from a client.
I wont comment on your post ohnyc, but if you'd like to discuss CDB, please send me a message.
@ohnyc: well don't ALL businesses pass through the cost of doing business? I mean everyone has overhead and they plan that into the cost of their product right?
@ohnyc: Since a business would not exist but for clients, yes, I do think it is fair to pass on operational costs to clients. And I say that as a photography customer.
@ohnyc: I'm also confused. If you don't earn that income from clients, where do you get it from?
The chart is useful and all to explain why photographers need to charge such and such.
But at the end of the day, I as a client don't really care how much money you need to make to sustain your business. Forgive me if I sound selfish, but I only care about me.
If your images are not worth X to me, I won't pay you that much whether you need that much to keep your business afloat or not.
I will pay what I think your work's quality is worth to me.
wanderer, you're not sounding selfish, you are expressing your point of view. Photography is subjective, isn't it? I agree that you only pay for what you value, if images have no value to you, you would not pay the price. Quality of work is subjective also, what i think looks like crap, may look absolutely fantastic to someone else, and vice versa.
I absolutely know that i am not a photographers for everyone, the right clients will love me, my work, and my price. 
@JennyW1: I get income from the clients, but some of my work is the work that is done to get and complete some of the business that I do. For example, I wouldn't charge my clients for work that I do in invoicing them or planning a marketing campaign, etc. I would bill them for work that is done for THEM not work that is done to run the business as a regular "cost of doing business" item.
@ITCPhoto: I just wanted to contribute to the thread as a business owner. I don't have anything to message off line that would be useful. I wanted to discuss within thread, rather than privately, to discuss aspects of running a business.
I think that there are many costs associated with running a business that are not billable to clients overall. Maybe it's more common for photographers to pass everything along.
@CorgiTales: Yes, I agree, that every business has overhead. My specific question was about what overheard is passed along to a client and what overhead is just the normal part of running a business.
For example, in the pie chart above, there is social media, advertising, and meetings listed. In my business, these are not items I could charge anyone for, it's just my normal cost of doing business. None of my clients are going to pay me for or pay a surcharge for me to do social networking.
So if I contract with a client to do X at a rate of $150/hr and spend 8 hours doing it. I can bill for $1200. If I also spend, in that same day, an hour doing a blog post, I cannot bill my client for $1350.
If I have a meeting and a client decides not to go with me, I can't charge that client (or another unsuspecting one) for not picking me. I lose that hour.
Or, if a client pays me with a Visa, I cannot surcharge my client for the 1.5-3% CC charge Visa charges me to take the Visa. That's my cost of doing business. I can, however, use that 1.5-3% surcharge as a tax deduction at the end of the year.
Nope, sorry, I still don't get it.
If you have to pay for social networking, VISA charges and the like, how are you paying for it? Where do the funds to cover those charges come from?
@ohnyc: I'm also a business-owner catering to the wedding industry. I do consider things like advertising and how much time I spend with clients (i.e. meeting time) part of my fees. I don't bill them separately for it, of course, but when I price my services, that all comes into play, and it's all included.
I truly think that any costs you incur for owning a business (within reason) should be included in your service fees. I wouldn't charge my clients for things like pens and notebooks, but I do consider things like bookkeeping fees, etc., part of the service I'm offering. I don't charge a ton for it, of course, because my main service is weddings. But if I didn't charge an appropriate amount for my services to cover these business needs, I wouldn't be able to stay afloat. Perhaps the wedding industry is just different?
Also, my prices are a bit lower than the average for my city.
@JennyW1: It comes from revenue from the overall business. Gross revenue - business expenses (non pass through expenses, salaries, etc, etc, etc) = net profits. Out of the net profits, I choose to pay myself a salary and choose to invest some funds back into the business.
I think brides question the range in prices. For instance, one photographer charged $5000 for the full day whereas another charged $2500 for the same package. Their photos were the same quality and they printed at the same lab. (I ask what lab they use.)
I also depise set packages. What if I don't want bridals, wedding album, prints, ect. I wish there was a clear itemize breakdown of every penny. I'd rather be charged hourly. The whole set price reminds me of salary employees. You can bust your butt and work 10 hours of overtime, but you are only getting paid for 40. Or you can slack off and still get paid for 40.
Like I said, I like itemize things. If you work 8 hours at a wedding and an additional 40 doing editing and charge $5000 for the package, that breaks down to $104 per hour. What is the breakdown after that?
I'm not questioning the high costs. I'm questioning the range in prices. You have pretty awesome photographers charging half of what cookie cutter wedding photographers charge. Like why does one photographer charge more for the bride being tilted and kissed with her bouquet held out than another?
I'm sorry if it's so long. I guess I just want an itemize cost of photographers packages.
@Miss Tattoo: We had a photographer who let us order a la carte--they're out there! And some will whip up an individual package if you communicate that's what you want.
I think the pricing differential has to do with a photog has a bigger name. Reputation and professionalism counts because we all want someone whose talented and reliable and people who have been around a while simply have more clients that say that about them. I think a lot of brides believe in purchasing piece of mind when they go with really expensive photogs--which is not unfounded. If you buy a Sylvia Weinstock cake, for example, then you can expect certain quality controls and standards that have contributed to the name (I have no idea about Weinstock's cakes in actuality, just an example).
...I also think a lot of brides believe that hiring a household name and spending big bucks gives them the right to demand perfection and throw hissy fits when things don't work out (not that brides don't do this with non-household names, but you know)--sort of like "If I spend this huge amount of money, then I'm buying insurance that they won't f*ck up."
@ohnyc: See, the "revenue from the overall business" to me is the revenue you generate from your clients UNLESS you have a second source of revenue (such as investments, grants, sales of capital on products). Do you have those other sorts of revenue?
I respectfully 100 percent disagree with the OP. I am in the wedding industry as well. I believe that there is a bit of an ego cushion in the pricing of most photographers. I know this because I have seen a young new photographer shoot the same event as a seasoned photographer and be done in half the time with an equal quality. The economy is in a recession. To assume that paying 150 an hour is reasonable is insane. The advertising should not be passed on to the client because it is the cost of doing business and getting more clients. I advertise in publications as well as doing several shows, as you know none of this is cheap. I am definitely on the lesser end of the price range in my area. I have a lot of respect for women who have a budget, stick to that budget and have events that equal the quality of professionals. It saddens me that they won't have the best pictures to showcase their work.
Now do I think that 6,000 is too much to charge for a package? ABSOLUTELY. I think the fairer range for photography is between 800 and 2000 with all the bells and whistles.
With that being said, I believe that there is a market for editing pictures. Maybe if you could do a package where you give unedited pictures to a client it would expand your clientele. You could also offer an editing service to increase your revenue. Good luck to you and remember that people are on budgets. Not everyone can afford the 2k+ price tags on a photography package and want the best alternatives within their budget. Instead of being defensive perhaps the best approach is to offer suggestions as to how a bride on a budget can retain a photographer of your caliber without breaking the bank.
@ohnyc / @crebre80
That still makes no sense... Where do your net profits come from? Charging your client. The client pays for it one way or another.
The rest of this makes my head hurt.
Some of the extra costs that cannot be itemized per wedding, but if I don't allow for them in my wedding packages, eventually I will run negative and not make money. There's a difference between overcharging because photogs can, and charging enough to make the living they want. If photogs could get away with overcharging, you'd see photogs making big bucks like a Goldman Sachs banker, but that's clearly not the case, my banker and consultant friends continue to be richer than I am.
1) Taxes. Say your photog truly makes $104/hr, has no other expenses, about 25 - 40% of that is gone depending on their tax bracket and state taxes
2) Annual fixed costs that have to be spread out over all the weddings in any given year: Website hosting, business liability insurance, equipment upgrade, rental, and maintenance (easily hundreds if not thousands), car gas and mileage especially if photogs don't charge you for travel, advertising or marketing.
3) Education - a lot of photogs have to recoup the money they put into their formal education, often in loans etc. Or if photogs continue to attend workshops to improve their craft, those cost a a lot too (thousands)
4) Backup - I'm paranoid about not losing anyone's precious photographs. So I stock several hard drives and spindles of discs, I have 2 identical cameras, multiple lenses, flashes, batteries, battery charges, etc.
5) Small things still add up - mailing supplies, software, business cards, sample prints, etc. These are costs of running a business because my ONLY money comes from my photography. If I don't get it from my work, who do I get it from? Maybe if I were part-time or had a second job that would be different.
I used to be a salaried worker in a corporate consulting firm and did not realize just how much I DIDN'T have to pay for, and that I got to keep everything I saw on my paycheck. I didn't have to pay for a huge chunk of my amazing health insurance, employment tax, I got 401(k) benefits, laptop / internet / phone, office supplies, all those things that I took for granted. As a photographer, when we cash your check, we immediately have to set aside chunks of that to offset our ongoing costs and taxes, we don't see it.
And also, photogs living in different regions of the country have to set diff prices based on their standards of living and who they have to support. Everyone's definition is different. There definitely will be people who are more affordable than others, and I do believe that most brides will be able to find the photog that is right for them, as long as expectations are realistic and they do their research.
@crebre80: Thank you! I don't need the photographer to edit photos. SO is a graphic designer and we have all the same studio software that all photographers use. I am pretty awesome at photoshop and SO of course runs circles around me doing it. Why would I pay $5000 for 8 hours of coverage and a disc of unedited photos? Retouching takes time, but I'd rather do it myself. Sometimes people get edited too much and look too perfect. You know? I want to have control over that part. I don't know. I just feel like I'm going to put out an ad for a photographer and tell them exactly what I want and what my budget is. It will be like the Lending Tree of weddings. lol
@shangchenphoto: Why should your clients pay for your education? I don't think I can go to my employer and asked for a bigger salary because I spent x amount at college to do this job.
My point about overhead in general: it isn't that photogs (or anyone I'm sure) say okay I'm charging you 2 hours for the blogging I did. But when you set your rates, you set them knowing that you will spend x time on direct client work and y time on "business management" type stuff.
About what photogs charge: I absolutely agree with those who say... you have to assess what the photos are worth to you and not pay more than that. But I think that you kind of need to consider that photographers are real people with mortgages and car payments too. There is so much overhead in being a photographer in general that it would be REALLY hard for someone to do it and not have it be a full-time job. From bodies, lenses, programs, training, etc etc etc. They are very skilled workers and I don't think it is unreasonable for them to figure out how many weddings they'll be able to book on average per year and how much they want to make per year and set their rates accordingly. For example, it seems to me that most photogs should reasonably be making at LEAST 60k/year for what they do. Figure 2 weddings/month (which might be generous... photogs?) that is 24 weddings per year. So they need to make $2,500 per wedding on average.... and probably more to keep up with having to spend thousands every year on new equipment.
@Miss Tattoo: So you don't think that you could demand a higher salary as a college grad or as someone with a master's as compared to someone with a GED or Associate's?
It seems to make sense that photogs and any other vendor, wedding related or not, would build the costs of running the business into their prices. How could they continue to stay in business otherwise? As for edited pictures, it makes sense to me that some photogs don't want their own work being edited by someone else--it's their name and reputation on the line if the photos are edited badly/not to their standards. But I will say that most photographers are super flexible when it comes to their packages--if you don't want the albums etc that are included, they're usually willing to custom make a package for you.
No high end photographers will give out unedited images.
All the good photographers that I talk to ( > $3000 ) say that they don't give out unedited images for us to "edit ourselves". Part of what they charge is for their art in postprocessing.
If you want to edit the images yourself, good for you, but personally I would not want nor do I have the time to go through thousands of images photoshopping them. I rather pay someone else to do it even if I'm good at it myself.
I hear that in craigslist there are plenty of those cheap shoot and burn photographers that basically just go to your wedding and shoot it and give you all the images they took. Maybe you should look into them.
@Miss Tattoo
But I bet your employer will pay for your job-related training courses... if yours doesn't, many do. Plus, didn't your education and experience come into play when you negotiated your salary? I bet it did.
Plus, many photographers - experienced ones who take a certain amount of pride in their work - wouldn't dream of letting someone else edit their photos. Their name is on the work - they have no idea whether you are skilled or not, and what the final product will look like.
This is not to say you shouldn't try to find what you want, just don't be so shocked about why many photographers won't consider it.
***
I think the OP was just trying to shed some light on why they charge what they do - there is a lot of ignorance surrounding pricing. If it's out of your budget, fine, move on, but don't question the pricing. That's insulting and ignorant. It's priced that way because people will pay it. Maybe not you. Other people who value what is being offered.
I think the point of the OP is that there's more that goes into being a wedding photographer than just taking pictures. I think some bees assume they're paying for a photographer just to snap the photos and that's it and she's saying that being a photographer (especially when it's your full time job) is more than that and there's a fine balance between charging just for labor and making a living.
I don't think the OP was being defensive at all - she was just trying to demonstrate her pricing methods and what goes into her work. And photography is a very subjective - it's an art. Every photographer has a different style and that's partly what you're paying for. Some photographers may spend less time editing and some may spend more - that's why you have to do your research to determine what you want from your photographer. If you don't think they're WORTH the price they're asking for, move on. Whenever you pay for something, as a consumer, you pay it because you think it's worth it.
If a photographer asks for $5000, then it's because they have customers who thinks their work is worth it (even if you don't). No photographer would continuously charge high prices if they didn't have customers to keep supporting their business. If a photographer is out of our budget, you either work with them with a la carte options, or you move on to someone who is in your budget.
You also have to factor in costs of living in places. The Cost of Living in Baton Rouge is definitely much different than in Boston. If a photographer only charged $800 here for a whole day's work, and that was their only job, then they must be living at home because that would barely cover taxes and the cost of food here.
@Miss Tattoo: not totally related, but yes, some employers WILL compensate you more because of your education. At my job, people are encouraged to get extra education and they provide a bonus and promotion for you as extra incentive. Extra education generally means more knowledge, more efficiency, better work. This goes back to WORTH again. If a photographer goes to a workshop and pays $X amount to learn a technique that improves her work, then it's likely that more clients will want to hire her because they think she's WORTH it and she has more leverage to raise her prices because she still has enough demand for her work.
It's all about simple economics. Supply and demand and price points - a photographer will quickly learn what price point is too high when there is no demand for her work.
This is, and looks to always be, a touchy subject.
Thankfully, in some regards, that there is a market for nearly every level of photographer for every couple from budget to extravagant.
I'm just saying photography school is really optional. A lot of great phtographers are self taught. I don't think Ansel Adams went to photography college. So it's okay to charge more than someone who self taught themselves?
I'm too much of a control freak. I may not like the way they edit. What if I don't like the black and white photos that they used the channel mixer for? What if I feel like they should have used healing brush instead of unsharp mask? Plus, not every photo needs editing. Shallow DOF photos are pretty easy to get and don't take a great deal of correcting. If I want the pew bow edited, then I can do it.
I want to find a photographer who is willing to work with me. And if they can't get over the "Packages start at $2500" then so be it. There are a lof of photographers out there that would be happy to do a custom package based off of what I want.
Oh, and I really wish more photographers would just list their prices on their websites! I don't want to call a photographer I fell in love with only to find out that it's $3000 above my photography budget.
And I have come across photographers who will do anything you ask of them within reason. I guess I'm turned off by set packages that aren't flexible. I'm also turned off by how arrogant some photographers can get when you tell them your budget. Well, put it on your effing website! We didn't even need to talk to each other if it were there for me to see!
I can agree about the prices. Even if it's not totally specific--a general "packages start at" would really help us out.
And for Pete's sake, turn off the music!
@Miss Tattoo: i would have to agree on the pricing online! i cant even count the number of photogs i called only to find out they wanted way more than i could afford. in my opinion if they are skilled enough and their prices are fair, there should be no problem with posting a set price online.
And it would be nice if they could offer a FLASH and a non FLASh website. I do most of my browsing at work and we don't have FLASh installed so those photographers get marked off because I'm not going to wait until I get home to do it.
Actually, what we will probably end up trying to do is skill swap. Graphic designer/web developer services for photography services. ^_^
@stephanie63087: Wasting time is my biggest pet peeve. I get so irritated taking five minutes out of my day to get wasted because a photographer couldn't provide their starting pirce online. That's five minutes I could have spent talking to another vendor.
@crebre80: Thank you so much for replying the way you did. I have wanted to say this for some time but I always come off a jerk. You said it very well! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!
I guess I don't understand the kerfuffle over photography prices. Of course, I ran into my share who were too expensive for our budget, but that happens every day with all purchases, not just wedding stuff. I might see a pair of Louboutin shoes (for example) that are awesome, but I can't afford them, so I move on. Picking photographers was a little harder than that, of course, but I don't really think photogs need to justify their prices to me. I assume that photogs set their prices according to what they feel comfortable charging, and if I'm not comfortable paying that, I move on to someone with prices in my range.
When I was looking, I found photogs from $600 (for four hours) to $7000 (for all day plus albums, etc) and everything in between. Sure, some of the low-end people weren't my taste, but some of the high-end people weren't either.
I don't go to a hair stylist and demand to know why she charges $100 for a haircut when I can get the same haircut (or similar) down the street from someone else for $50. I don't go to Target and demand to know why they charge more for my shampoo than Rite Aid, or whatever. I see the price, and I make a decision; it's pretty simple.
I do have to second the "please put prices on the webpage" thing!! Also, I ran into one photog who asked for *my* photography budget in the contact form. I didn't end up contacting her, because I didn't want to insult her. I had no idea what range she was in, and I didn't want to be offensive.
All businesses pass their overhead along to their customers. Not directly, of course; you don't bill a client for the hours you spend or on the materials you purchase for marketing etc. For that matter, you don't bill your clients for the hours you spend editing. But you do pass the costs along, unless you have an alternate source of revenue (external financial support, i.e. private donors - not likely). I'm a government consultant, and we only bill our clients for the hours we directly work on their projects, but the firm has to pay employees a salary for an 8-hour workday. If I only bill 6 hours a day to clients, where does my salary for those other two hours per day come from? It comes from loading my hourly billable rate high enough to cover the extra hours I will have to spend checking email, in trainings, in general staff meetings, etc. Companies that sell a product do the same thing: the price you pay for a bottle of soda includes money to help pay for advertising. To say that your business has costs that aren't passed on to the customer just doesn't make any sense, unless your business ends up in the red every year.
Anyway, I was going to comment that I'd suggest an additional category or two for the pie chart, based on conversations with professional photographers and blogs I read. First, time spent improving your skills. Our photographers regularly attend classes and seminars to improve their abilities, other photographers read books and spend hours self-training, but either way those are time costs and financial costs. Also, there's money to purchase new equipment (I assume that isn't included in "camera upkeep") as most photographers are continuously improving their arsenal with new lenses etc.
I understand the frustration that brides, and some photographers, have with inflated photography marketing. I've heard it said that photography is like wine in some cases: that slapping an astronomical price tag on it actually makes people more willing to pay for it, as they assume the price is an indication of rarity and quality. I'd critique photographers who are charging five figures for their wedding services as taking advantage of that phenomenon. But I don't think it's fair to criticize someone charging a few thousand dollars for their hours and hours (and hours....) of labor in an effort to make their business break even, which is the situation many small photogs are in. And there are tons of photographers in that category. My experience shopping for a photographer unearthed a large number of talented pros in what I'd consider an entirely reasonable price range for the labor and product they were going to put in, and were easily within our budget. So, I have no complaints about the price of photography these days.
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