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Ok so this is a spin off from a previous thread in the LGBTQ thread about a bee whose sister had a sex change and became her brother..
Anyway as I was reading that thread and the comments about hate and judgement. And I started to wonder how you bees would feel honestly if you found out after getting engaged that your FI used to be a woman...
I think you need an option for "I would care because he lied to me and I just now found out." I would be extremely upset and hurt that that secret was kept from me. Especially because it would affect a lot of things in the future like our ability to have children naturally.
I would be upset - not about the gender change, but that he waited so long to tell me. If you're at a place in your relationship where you're getting engaged, it's my opinion that you really should know major stuff like that about each other already. I would feel the same way if I found out, for instance, that the guy I was engaged to had been married before but never mentioned it.
you need another poll option. i don't know how i would feel if i started dating a ftm, but i would be pissed if i didn't find out until we were engaged. that's a big secret to keep.
@CorgiTales: I agree 100%. I would care because he didn't tell me, not because he underwent a sex change. Especially since gender reassignment would mean he and I would not be able to have children. Also, I ma not well versed in the legal aspect, but would a legal marriage still be allowed at that point?
ETA: I'm not sure how I'd deal with that situation in real life though. I love my FI more than anything in the world because of who he is as a person. It really is one of those things where you do not know how you would react until it happens to you.
The only reason it would bother me would be if he still had breasts, a vagina, and was a feminine shape. I am attracted to masculine features and manly men, so I would not be sexually attracted to a feminine man. Also, not being able to naturally have children would be very upsetting to me.
Basically, it's not the fact that they were born a woman that would bother me, it's the lack of sexual attraction and inability to reproduce without help.
Oh yea, and keeping that secret from me, their intended life partner.
I'd be a little bothered that he didn't tell me sooner, but honestly, it wouldn't make a difference! He'd still be the same person, deep down, even if he used to be a lady. Love does not discriminate in terms of gender; you love the person for who they are, not what is (or used to be) in their pants.
ETA: It probably helps that I don't want biological children and am not really attracted to the "he-man" type.
totally agree with corgitales; if i was at the point of getting engaged and fi had never told me that, i'd be incredibly hurt that he'd kept that huge part of his history from me. it wouldn't be the fact that he'd transitioned that would bother me, but i would be upset with that much of a secret for so long in our relationship.
eta: thanks for changing the poll! i already voted though, so just imagine an extra vote for the new category....
I would most likely be upset that we've been together so long, and he kept it to himself. It would not affect my decision to marry him whatsoever. I love him for everything he is, was, and will be.
ETA: I would not be any less attracted to him than I am now. Nothing would have changed, I would just know more about his past than I did before.
I've seen this the other way more frequently as an advice column type problem - a spouse that after several years of marriage has realized he (usually the husband but it could be the wife) does not identify with his birth gender and wants to transition to being a woman.
Personally, this is one thing that would be a total non-issue for me. I'm a little wibbly on my own personal view of trans as it relates to strengthening the definition of gender roles, but that doesn't mean I don't support those who feel like they're trapped in the wrong body. I'd actually be really excited to try to help a partner through the process of transitioning.
BUT I do realize that one thing that makes it easier for me to accept moving forward is that I'm attracted to and have had relationships with both men and women. I have a lot of nontraditional attitudes on gender to begin with. I can see feeling a little betrayed if someone was keeping this from me, but at the same time from the transgender people I've known that it can and often does take a long time to come to the realization of exactly what's going on in one's own mind let alone being comfortable enough to bring that up with anyone else. I wouldn't be happy that my partner kept it from me for that long, but I think that is something I could overcome given how strong people's prejudices can be and how scary this is to come out about.
I agree with CorgiTales.
For me personally, I would not be comfortable with being in a relationship with someone who had a sex change. I could easily be friends with someone that had a sex change, but intimate relationships & marriage are different. I don't think I'd be comfortable with it.
I would definitely be pissed that he lied to me, and upset about our ability to reproduce (as Corgi and others stated). Would I leave him because of it? I don't know - that's a pretty major lie to keep from someone, and I'd have a hard time trusting him, similar to if he cheated on me.
Luckily I've seen about a million of his baby/childhood pictures, so while we may have trouble conceiving anyway, I feel pretty confident that this won't be an issue for us.
@bells:There are benefits to being with a woman for sure. Women are smart and quick with their thoughts and emotional. Men are not.....but I loooovvveee men. The way they walk, talk, the width of their back, strength, smell....all of that is yummy to me. Just because you have a sex operation and get a penis does not make you a man to me. It would be a game changer for me and I would be upset if I was lied to.
@KatNYC2011:a legal marriage is possible once the gender-reassignment surgery is completed. he would legally and physically be a male.
@abbyful: I'm with you - I personally wouldn't be comfortable being in an intimate relationship and a marriage with someone who has had a sex change. I'd have no problems being friends with them or having someone in my family make that decision but marriage is a different ballgame to me.
That said - I also agree with the PPs that even if I was comfortable with it, not finding out about it until after an engagement would be a definite problem. Big things need to be out in the open before engagement is discussed, IMO.
@CorgiTales: Totally agree. It's the lying that's important. What does that say about trust in your relationship?
Honestly, I think it would depend for me on when the transition happened.
I've read a lot about birth defects and how they have been mishandled. I think if he had been born a hermaphrodite or leaning toward female and then in childhood or very early adolescence had transitioned to male based on his preference, that wouldn't bother me.
I think it would bother me if he'd lived decades as a woman and transitioned as an adult. Anyone who has undergone that must know that it could be a big deal for someone they are marrying so it's hard for me to imagine someone who would keep that until it got that serious.
It's like almost any huge lifestyle issue. If you wait that long to share, you're obviously either not comfortable with it yourself or not comfortable with how you think other people will respond. But it's definitely the sort of thing you have to give people time to absorb.
I would be pretty pissed that he didn't feel comfortable enough with the woman he is marrying to tell me such an important part of his life. I wouldn't be pissed about the actual sex change, though. I mean, he's a man so however he started life wouldn't matter to me. I don't want kids, but being mad about not being able to have them nautrally is kind of crazy. Or being upset about the natural part is, I guess. For all each of us know, we may not be able to either. Doesn't make you any less of a mother to have a child from adoption or surrogacy or whatnot. Unless you are marrying someone for their genetic makeup, I guess, which I'm sure does happen...
I would be more pissed that he refuses to look up when I ask 'how does this look' because he always says 'I don't know - it's a dress, you look awesome' or 'why do you have 100 pairs of black shoes, they all looke the same', though..so I guess my level of pissed is different..:P
It's the lying I would care about....but I would love them no matter what.
@kitzy: Thanks! Didn't know that.
ETA: Another question. If the gender reassignment surgery was done after a marriage and divorce was not filed, would the marriage be voided after the individual undergoing gender reassignment legally changed sexes? (i.e. if gay marriage was not legally allowed in that state)?
I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that could actually happen to anyone. Why would you ever get engaged to someone without having met their family, heard childhood stories, seen family pictures, etc? Maybe people should not just get engaged to people they don't really know.
Realistically, I doubt this often happens. Gender reassignment surgery is now very good for a m to f transsexual, and it would be possible for someone to have sex with a woman who used to be a man without noticing that the person was not born a woman. However, going the other way, the surgery is still at a fairly primitive level, and you would notice if he took his clothes off.
That being said, I would not have an issue with marrying someone who was transsexual, provided they were honest with me about it.
@KatNYC2011: If a couple starts out of opposite genders and gets married, they remain married even if one of them changes. However, that is one of the few issues that is clear in this area. If they get married after the change, some states would treat them as being the new gender, and thus able to marry only someone of their original gender. Other states would treat them as still being the old gender, and thus able to marry only someone of their new gender.
This is a silly question. If I'd seen him naked, I would know, and I wouldn't be engaged to someone I hadn't seen naked.
I have to say that I would care... I mean, we wouldn't be able to have kids together and that's is very important to me. Also, the lying fact would hurt alot to, knowing 'shim' didn't trust me until now to tell me.
I wouldn't care. And as for the "lying"...think of how hard it is for people like this to "come out" about this stuff. It's TERRIFYING. (Besides the fact, they view themselves as the gender/sex they have been reassigned to, NOT that which they were before.)
@CharmCityLady: It's not a silly question cause he would have undergone sex reassignment surgery, thus you couldn't tell by looking at him naked.
I would feel sad that they didn't feel comfortable telling me previously, but I would still continue a relationship.
Honestly, my concept of sexuality is so fluid gender is the last thing I consider when dating someone. In fact, I don't consider it at all.
I'm not a person who is planted in the physical and the sensory. I connect much more with the mental and immaterial. Gender, to me is just a physical attribute to a person same as hair colour and whatnot.
@tomboypink: Even after sex reassignment surgery, you could tell if you saw him naked. The surgery just isn't that good yet.
i would call it off. that's just too big of an issue to not bring up with me and it's too weird for me personally.
In theory I would want to say that I would be all honkey-dorey with it. However, in practice I know that I would not be cool with it. I have nothing against transgendered individuals, but I can't see myself knowingly getting into a romantic relationship with one or staying in one if they didn't disclose the fact earlier. I can imagine my fiance coming home and being all "oh btw once I was a chick" and my instant hypothetical reaction would be to feel incredibly offended.
A little off topic... How authentic can a penis be made?
@primp: I saw an interview with the first "man" who became pregnant...and in this instance I used quotes because if you became pregnant, it means you kept all your female reproductive organs, and therefore you're still a woman, that news story irked me...but I digress...TMI forthcoming!
In it "he" said the male hormones made the clitoris grow into a functioning penis...whether or not that is true I don't know...
@primp: I just read about this for my psychology of sex and gender class. A penis that has been created via surgery cannot become erect on its own (because of the lack of erectile tissue)--a silicone or plastic rod is generally inserted to create an erection. Sometimes, the nerves from the clitoris can be preserved for sensitivity. Obviously, there's not going to be any ejaculation. Male to female sex changes seem to be more successful than female to male.
@CharmCityLady: You clearly didn't read through the other posts and clearly don't understand what we are talking about here.
I'd be okay with it. Knowing I was lied to would suck for a little bit but I could easily understand the desire to keep that particular truth hidden and would probably get over the deceit pretty quickly.
I would be hurt by him not telling me before we got engaged, but I would ultimately understand why it was hard to tell me. I'd love him and marry him anyway.
I don't understand how this could possibly happen... unless you've never seen your SO naked (which is not very likely nowadays).
@ddubzz: Hmmm. I don't know. Some people have sex only in the dark. Some people are "pillow princesses" who are happy with being pleasured (orally, manually) with no penetration and wouldn't question it. Then isn't there the possibility that a persion who'd had a sex change (FTM) and who does have a "created" penis that can be used to penetrate could do so solely in the dark, and especially if the woman wasn't sexually experienced they'd be none the wiser?
Just musing.
@Tunacupcakes: and @Entangled: I am with you two in your way of thinking. I have been with men and women. Married a man, now I am about to marry a woman. I've been with feminine men, and masculine women, and vice versa. I've appreciated qualities in all these people but in my relationship now, I am with a person who is physically female with no desire to change that via surgery, but lacking in many typical "female" behaviors and not really identifiying strongly as such either. There is a delicious mix as a result, to me anyway, of many of the things I liked best in the past with both men AND women. Best of both worlds, you could say.
@luckyprincess: Haha.. my FI (female) is just like that. In fact she has uttered those very words... "Why on earth do you NEED another pair of black shoes???". She's a total "guy" in many ways.
@Soladylike: I get what you are saying in your comment to bells, but then again, the lack of a penis doesn't make someone "womanly" in the typically understood way either. My FI is lacking a penis but is not feminine. At least not in most ways.
As for legal stuff, just thought I'd mention the Texas case of a woman who was born male, had a sex change operation, married a guy (he knew all about it), and after his death her original gender was discovered and she lost all rights to survivor benefits even though the'd been married a very long time. Texas determines legal gender by what's on your birth certificate, which, ironically, allows some "same sex" marriages to occur when a person who was born male but has an operation to become physically female marries another female. What appears to the outside world to be a lesbian marriage can then occur. Stupid Texas.
Finally, I have to add (and to answer the original question) that I would handle this sort of situation well, because I am very open minded about gender and all that (obviously).. but I would also be hurt that there'd been a secret. On a semi-related note, FI once talked abotu sex reassignment surgery and to my surprise, I was NOT as comfortable with it as I'd expected. I know that the hormone treatements would change her and even though I am attracted to her "female masculinity", I don't want her to be a man, not fully.. does that make sense?
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