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One of our policies is to avoid personal attacks and snarkiness...but a lot of users don't really know what that means! Of course "personal attacks" can often be very subjective, but overall I wanted to post this to create a discussion on how we can post a differing viewpoint from the OP without being accused of personal attacks. Many of you have said you're afraid to post a differing opinion because you don't want to be called snarky. So come on in friends, and learn what it is to be snarky!
I'll start!
Whenever I read a post and a poster has asked whether they should wear the "plaid wedding dress" or the "paisley wedding dress," and my opinion is that both dresses are completely hideous and she is out of her mind, I post something like this:
NOT SNARKY:
Those dresses are certainly unique! Are you deadset on doing something different than the traditional white dress or even a dress with an accent color? If you are, I would go with the paisley one because [blah blah blah].
SNARKY:
Those dresses are so ugly! I don't think you should wear either one. I don't mean to be harsh, I'm just being honest. You need to pick a different dress!
The difference between the two?
The first one acknowledges that the dresses are not my taste, but does not put them down or criticize the look. It also suggests another dress entirely, but sticks to the OP's topic, which is deciding between two dresses.
The second post is very critical of her dress choice (and she may really love both dresses!) and isn't a nice thing to say either online nor in person. Using corallories like "not to be harsh" or "I'm just being honest" doesn't excuse the fact that the post is rude and negative in the first place. If you find yourself typing those phrases, you may want to recheck what you've written!! The last thing is that the snarky post tells the OP she "needs" to pick a different dress. She asked for help deciding between two dresses, so redirecting her elsewhere without even suggesting another type or style is not helpful. (Not exactly snarky, but not exactly helpful!)
It's a pretty subjective world, and a very touchy topic, but can you ladies give some examples of what you consider snarky and a better way to phrase it?
According to dictionary.com -
Snarky: Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
I think lack of respect and consideration says it best for me! Like when someone does not agree with something and decides to post saying something like "brides who like XXX are stupid because your wedding is only one day!" when it would be better to say, "I personally felt like it was more important to save X money for the down payment on the house, so we went the budget route in regards to XXX."
ETA: In regards to the poll, I don't always decline to post when I disagree, because I think there are respectful ways of disagreeing. If we had no dissenting opinions here, it'd be really boring! But I think open-mindedness and a willingness to listen coupled with the ever-important respect are necessary for those situations.
If I disagree with something, I try to talk about my own experience with the same issue and how I handled it differently. I think this gets across that I think the poster's opinions aren't correct, but I am just sharing my story rather than putting them down. So, for example, if a younger bride is upset that her family/friends are questioning her decision to get married, I respond that I am also a young bride who has heard the same comments, but I don't get upset or take it personally because of such and such reasons.
When I post something asking for help, I find these types of responses very helpful.
Love this post. A good example is someone venting on the site. A bee might be coming just to hear some support for her situation or some empathy. Here is a good example:
NOT SNARKY:
I'm really sorry that you're going through this. Have you thought about talking to the person about how you're feeling? He/She might not realize they're hurting your feelings.
SNARKY:
OMG...you are being a brat. You get one day, not a week, or a month, or a year...
I use this example b/c I hear that line all the time. Yes, brides only get one day; however, it's not helpful to tell them just to get over it and move on. They're looking for support here, and a comment like that isn't exactly helpful.
I agree that you explained this well
I find the line really thin and a little hard to know if you are on the snarky side or not. I try my best to not be snarky. I edit and re-edit myself. But I know that at times when I have tried to be blunt...because I truly was trying to be helpful....I came across as snarky
I know that I sometimes will have a differing opinion but I will hestiate to post because I am worried that I will come across as negative
The reason why I love WB is because over all...people are nice. and when poeple are not nice, someone almost always steps in a says something.
I love the ladies on here and I think that most of us mean well. I know that I have often gone back and re-stated something or even appoiligized. This should be a safe place...to get honest feedback. But most imporant than honestly is that it feels SAFE. Sometimes I will not reply if I disagree because I know the poster is really just looking for support and not a critique.
I sometimes feel the need to post when I disagree with the OP. But I try my hardest to morph my comment into something non-snarky like the examples you've given. I hate when I read something that seems down right mean---but I have to say, I am sometimes thinking the same thing in my head. Nonetheless, it's inapporpriate to post.
I think if you ever find yourself needing to put the phrase "I'm not trying to be harsh..." into a post you're probably about to cross a line. Sometimes there are people who do need a little bit of a wake up call, but I think there's always a way to do that which does NOT come across as snarky.
Example: Bride A says: "OMG I'm about to just lose it and murder my entire wedding party because of XYZ!!"
Bad response: Bride B says: "Wow, Bride A, you need to just chill out, quit being an immature bridezilla and realize that not everything can go your way. I'm not trying to be harsh, but grow up."
Good response: Bride B says: "Wow, Bride A, I'm sorry you're feeling that way. I've never felt quite that way before myself, but I'm wondering if you tried A, B, or C, if that would help your problem? Keep your eyes on the prize -- you'll be married to your wonderful FI when all of this is over!"
I think one of the big problems is several times I've seen snark defended by people saying, "Well, I'm not the sort of person that sugar coats things." There's a difference between sugar coating and presenting solutions in a tactful, supportive fashion. If you STILL think you can't comment on a situation without sounding harsh, then maybe you should just let that thread slide. There are so many people on WB that I don't think anyone's problem will go unanswered.
Snarky:
OMG that's why I hate that entire religion/locale. I cannot believe they did that.
Not Snarky:
Wow that sucks that that person did that to you, perhaps you can look for different avenues or other ways to achieve the deserved result...
What I've noticed with snarky vs. non-snarky comments, even if you don't agree with the OP, if you word things in a non-snarky way they are almost always MUCH more likely to hear what you say and actually take it into consideration! However, when people feel attacked, they just seem to put their guard up and are resistent to any help (even good help!).
So well stated! And I definitely think a reminder was in order... I don't know if maybe some of our new bees don't understand how we speak to one another on here but I have noticed some of those who are new to the hive tend to make some of these "snarky" comments lately. (Clearly, not all or even most, I just see a bit of a correlation) Thank you bringing it to the hive's attention! :)
I think it's all subjective.
There is a HUGE difference between an honest, dissenting opinion and snark. Someone disagreeing with a post does not automatically denote a personal attack, which is how some posters take it.
Snark is not productive or helpful, but franky, neither are multiple posts telling the person how right or justified they are. Reality checks are the best medicine sometimes.
Great post!! I was wondering if this was going to come up. ANyway, I think you stated it perfectly.
LOL, good game.
In my opinion, there is almost no way to criticize someone's feelings without being snarky or launching into a personal attack. The thing about feelings is that you can't really control them. So when I see any comment about why it is wrong for someone to feel the way they do, I cringe a little.
BUT, I can't promise I've been perfect on that front, either, and I think it is something we should all strive towards improving. One of the really valuable aspects of this community has to be that we can offer support to a vent, whether or not we think it is a little off.
I completely agree with GirlWithARing's reply. There is validity in sharing your experiences with why something doesn't work that is being suggested, even if the majority goes along with the opposite. I've seen several posts where having an opposite experience could leave the poster feeling like they are the lone dissenter with the only opposite experience in the world and that they don't really know what they're talking about since their experience is different from everyone else's therefore they are wrong and everyone else is right. After that, it's up to the OP and everyone who reads and/or responds to take from it what they will since you certainly can't force someone to agree with you.
At the same time, there are several posts I have seen where if someone tries to point out what is considered acceptable and what isn't according to proper etiquette, then the majority of posters seems to fall into the mindset of "etiquette isn't used in this day and age since it's really the same thing as tradition and we can pick and choose what to follow. we are going to go with what we feel is right even if the outdated etiquette books say not to because we don't see any problem with it and we don't believe for a second that our guests will be inconvenienced either. but we are being slandered and attacked because the popular opinion is said to be bad etiquette even though we can't see why." What do you say to something like that when proper etiquette is being violated and people are aware but they don't care? But the things that are done instead are due to popularity, despite everyone knowing that they are wrong according to the proper etiquette and manners, but the debates get very heated.
As far as snarky vs polite, it really shouldn't be that difficult to tell the difference and restrain yourself. A huge drawback of the internet is that it allows people to say things they would never say in real life. I'm not posing that as an excuse but it is why many people say what they do online. You can politely say that you don't agree with something or that something isn't your style without sugar-coating or being snarky. As far as style goes, in the end, it's no one's decision but that of the couple in question. There are folks who say that "WB is the last place to go for advice because they sugar coat everything and don't how to give the honesty that your friends and family won't". I haven't noticed sugar coating at all, but with a huge stretch, it could possibly be construed that way because of how civil everyone is for the most part which you don't see anywhere else online.
Thanks for clarifying for the newer bees - I would hate to see anyone's feelings get hurt! I hope we can continue to keep the hive a positive and pleasant place to *buzz around.* =)
@Selene221: I'll try to set this up...so let's say someone posts that they want to invite their sorority sisters to their bridal shower, but they aren't going to invite them to the wedding. Then they list any sort of question about it.
SNARKY:
Wow, that's a really selfish idea! Aren't you just being gift-grabby? Etiquette says you should only invite people to the shower who are going to the wedding, so what you're doing is already wrong. I don't think you should do it.
NOT SNARKY:
Hm...etiquette says that you should only invite people to the shower who will also be invited to the wedding. Have you thought about that angle? Your sorority sisters may feel put out that they bought you a gift but didn't get to go to a wedding or reception. If you still want to do it, then my advice is [xyz].
Both posts point out that what the OP is doing is against etiquette, however the second one respects the fact that it is her choice whether or not to follow etiquette, and then offers further introspective on her question.
I don't think that pointing out that something is against etiquette is in and of itself snarky, I think it's the context in which you use it, and respecting the fact that the OP has a choice of whether or not they will follow it.
Please keep in mind that there may be Bee's who are functioning with social disorders (like Aspergers) and don't recognize that their communications are coming across as "snarky".
Hmmm.... Agree with other bees that a lot of this is subjective and that word choice counts for a lot.
When people are snarky, it discourages me from posting. I'm new to this forum, and think it's full of useful information, but I can't help but be discouraged by reading through some of the snark. I recently posted something that I found helpful, and got *what I considered* to be a snarky comment. I know it wasn't directed at me, but still, I think these boards are meant to be encouraging...And I'd like to participate more than lurk...
let's also remember that in addition to trying not to be snarky, also try not to be super defensive. If you post something looking for opinions, you will get them. If you only want opinions that match your own.. maybe just say your post out loud to yourself. I have said it recently on another post - it gets old reading 50 of the same cookie cutter responses. I have those moments like @VirginiaMarie above -- where there is clear disagreement, but hesitation to post b/c so much thought has to go into how to not appear negative and snarky on the boards. Sometimes differring opinions are automatically labeled snark, which is definitely not true.
Agree with MelissaBegins. I think some posts are ONLY looking for positive responses and if I disagree, I just avoid posting. I do think that disagreeing often gets interpreted as "snark."
@MelissaBegins and HotChild, those are excellent points. Having a different opinion often does get labelled as snark even though it isn't the case at all.
We all just have to be aware of what we say whether it is a differing opinion or being defensive when a response is made to your post. In the end it is better for the entire community.
I think the only time I get annoyed by "snarky" comments is when it is obvious the commenter didn't really read the whole post (i.e. skimmed it, skipped the last paragraph, etc.). Oftentimes the poster will have one sentence that completely changes the tone/meaning of the post and it is obvious when a commenter completely disregarded half the post.
I think the most common posts with this problem are the venting ones where the poster will state "I know this isn't a big deal but I just needed to vent." Some commenters disregard the "vent" part and decide to attack the poster about their feelings being wrong, unnecessary, etc.
Usually if I don't have anything nice to say, I won't say it at all. That's why I like posts where there is a poll-- I prefer to stay anonymous, yet still be able to give an opinion.
Ditto to crebre
"Snarky:
OMG that's why I hate that entire religion/locale. I cannot believe they did that.
Not Snarky:
Wow that sucks that that person did that to you, perhaps you can look for different avenues or other ways to achieve the deserved result..."
There was a TON of rude snarky comments in a thread yesterday that said exactly that even though it had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Ditto Crebre here too. Just because a poster complains about the negativity of a situation does not give subsequent posters the free reign to bash on the generality. EVEN IF the comments could appear positive or supportive toward the original poster, they could in fact be quite snarky toward a greater group of bees.
one example: OP: I got bitten by a nasty dog!!
supportive/constructive comment: Hope you get medical attention and you should report/talk to the dog owner!
snark: Gosh, that's why I hate dogs and their owners.
another example: OP: My priest is not being reasonable!
supportive: hope you can resort to another priest or church for help!
snark: Catholicism pisses me off!
i cant even believe you guys are discussing this. try to be less sensitive about, like, nothing?!?! and put the egos on a leash. i think everything else will be fine
*sigh*
I understand the point of this thread, but does anyone think that it might come off a little "high-horse-y" to the newer members?
In my opinion, we already have a dedicated page regarding the rules of posting, and if someone is being snarky then they should be directed to that page. Other than that, I think we might be getting a little "anti-snark patrol", if you will.
It's a board, and not every one is going to agree, or always word things to sound perfectly polite. While it's important to keep the snark to a minimum to protect the integrity of the boards, I think sometimes it teeters on the edge of trying to censor people who are a little more outspoken about their own opinions.
Also, if I may, I kind of think posting a thread about "what is SNARKY" is a little condescending. Who really doesn't know what snarky means, you know what I mean? I feel like this is kind of beating a bead horse.
Sorry :(
edit: I was also one of the people that said something to the effect of being pissed off by Catholicism. Again, I think that's more stating your opinion (albeit strongly) rather than being snarky.
polite: "that's horrible that that happened in a Catholic church, can you find another church that will marry you?"
opinionated: "I can't believe that happened to you in a Catholic church! Catholicism really pisses me off!"
snarky: "Catholics are such hypocrites, figures they would do something like that. Ditch your church and find another one."
For me it really depends. If I can't find a nice way to say something, I won't post. If I feel like anything I say (constructive or otherwise) would not be taken well, I don't post either. Differing opinions are awesome, if the OP actually wants to hear them. I think it just depends on the person, really.
I agree with Melissabegins and hotchildinthecity. I feel like, if you start a post asking for an opinion, you don't have a right to be mad or call someone "snarky" simply because they disagree with you. If you are only looking for people to agree with you, then perhaps you shouldn't ask for an "opinion."
There was a post on here a few weeks ago that got completely out of hand. The OP who was seeking "opinions and advice" was offended by the responses she got- meanwhile some of the things she put in her original rant/vent session were completely and totally offensive. She was so fixated on herself and her own emotions that she failed to see that she started off by being offensive herself. She then felt empowered and made even more ignorant comments because the first several responses she got were people who agreed with her. Then when the bees who were offended voiced their opinions, all of the sudden she felt "attacked." That door swings both ways but she simply didn't see it like that.
While I don't go out of my way to be intentionally hurtful or disrespectful to anyone, I always tell the truth, even if it's not always popular.
I agree with Monkeygirl and the other posters above. If someone posts something to ask an opinion, they don't have a right to call someone snarky just because that person disagrees with them.
And the post that Monkeygirl referenced, the one from a few weeks ago - I remember that one of the hostesses popped in and was really upset that so many people were calling the OP selfish. But she WAS selfish, totally selfish. She admitted it herself (proudly). And I don't think that the "snark" on that thread really started until the OP came back and argued with everyone who disagreed with her.
Personally, I've never been one to sugarcoat, and I've always been fairly blunt. On a forum like this, I tend to keep my negative opinions to myself if it's about a matter of taste, like a dress or decor. But even if I do have a dissenting opinion, I still wouldn't consider that snarky. An example:
Polite: "I personally am not a fan of Michael Buble, so I wouldn't want any of his music at the wedding, but that sounds like a perfect first dance for you and your FI."
Blunt: "Nope. Not a fan of his." <-- This is what I usually sound like
Snarky: "Michael Buble sucks and all of his fans are idiots."
Just to clarify: I think this thread was stared because earlier today, a user posted a question and felt the responses came across as a personal attack... and so she asked for her account to be deleted.
The reason she gave was that she "[found] that people on this site are being less and less supportive. Whenever I post something (which I wouldn't normally ever bring up!), I get criticized."
I think the thread above was intended in the spirit of a discussion... as in, let's chat a bit about the comment policy, so we can reach a consensus about how to maintain our civility?
I definitely agree that people should feel free to share their true opinions! The balancing act is in making sure that we don't host purposefully hurtful comments. It's a tough line to draw, but I hope that talking about the line helps us figure out where it is!
A snarky comment implies that there's something inherrently wrong with a person or a thing when there is no objective support for such a conclusion.
@Mr.Bee I'm so sorry that this happened. As a general rule, I think people on here are very good, but every once in a while, things get a little out of hand, and it can be from posters you least suspect (I'm sure I've been less than perfect).
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