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I mean, its not really wedding etiquette, its more of common sense. Im going through the same thing where people want to invite random people and paying their own way, its just rude to bring such a thing up! Maybe you can tell your FI that your parents are paying enough and you guys have to set a limit to the guest list. But just to avoid conflict between you and the hubby maybe you can just suck it up and invite them
Why is ettiquette important? Thats a bigger question than you probably realize :) It is all based on social norms. Society couldn't function if we didn't have a set of unspoken "rules" by which we all should abide. Some are important and are the very foundation of our civilization (taboos)... like not killing people or not engaging in incest. Some are important but to a lesser extent (mores)... like not stealing. Some are just guidelines... things that wouldn't get you in trouble REALLY but are still rules nonetheless (norms)... like not picking your nose or sticking your tongue out at people.
Ettiquette generally falls into the "norm" category. If societies didn't have complex sets of rules like this, how would we function? If no one cared what anyone else thought, everything would be chaos and in order to right things there would have to be laws for EVERYTHING. Social norms breed acceptance and predictability.
Sorry. Sociology major here. :)
"He said that they do things differently in the midwest and that by me complaining about the lack of ettiquette and them putting us in a bad position, I'm basically saying his family has no manners."
How about because they DON'T have any manners?? My DH's family is the same way! They are so clueless about ettiquette it makes me sick.
Why is wedding etiquette important? Because it lays the groundwork for expected behavior, thus eliminating arguments over what should or shouldn't be done. So...if his family had one damn clue about etiquette, you wouldn't be fighting right now because they would be acting appropriately.
Tell him to tell his parents the guest list is set in stone older than the tablets that the Ten Commandments are written on, and you WILL NOT add anyone else at all from this point forward. No need for new conversation! And tell him to grow up and figure out what is rude and what isn't so that you don't have to tell him. He has Google access doesn't he??
Ok, I totally agree it is ridiculous that your FILs keep inviting random people. But I think it is actually better they are going through your FI rather than directly reaching out to your parents with their requests. Personally, I wouldn't want my parents to be put on the spot by ridiculous requests from my FILs when my FI or I could serve as a buffer/filter first. Your FI should "manage" his parents and tell them these additions are not happening and leave you and your parents out of this.
Rather than explaining it as wedding etiquette, just think of it as party etiquette. If you were throwing a party for a friend's birthday and one of the guests called your friend to ask if their second cousin's girlfriend's brother's niece could be given an invitation, it would be weird. (1) Because your friend doesn't even know that person and (2) because your friend isn't the one hosting the party.
Ok, that is ridiculous!! If they want to see the uncle's ex-wife's husband's brother (am i close?) than they should do it on their own time, NOT your wedding! Tell them to meet them the next day or something. Seriously, it think it's rude to offer to pay for their dinners. Also, maybe you should just call your FI's mom and tell them from now on when it comes to guests, they need to call your parents directly. Then, your parents can deal with it and tell them that the guest list is already full, etc. Since they are paying for the entire thing, they have the right to control the list in my opinion. Actually, if you make his parents call yours maybe they won't!!! Case closed :)
Oh good point snuggielove! If his parents couldn't go through you two, maybe they just WON'T go through your parents? Grow up people!
I definitely agree that your FILs were out of line. However, I'm not really sure that "wedding etiquette" is at issue here. To me, wedding etiquette is things like "don't wear white to a wedding" or "shower guests should be invited to the wedding." This seems more like a general etiquette issue.
I think you and FI can agree that continued requests to add guests to the list so close to the wedding are inappropriate. At some point you have to establish that the list is final, no more changes from anyone. Now is probably a good time for that.
Regarding your other points, I do think ideally parents would just talk to each other, but it is very common for in-laws to communicate through their own kid if they're not close to the parents. This seems natural to me, especially for touchy subjects. Also, I do think that people adding guests should pay for them, no? We had requests to add guests from FI's side and there is NO WAY we would have agreed on these extra guests if his FMIL wasn't paying for them.
I think the etiquette rules you are thinking of are observed only in a minority of geographic areas and social classes. So you can't fault other people for adopting a more down-to-earth approach. At the same time, if this is important to you and your family, you could always respond to requests to add guests with "I'm not sure, please contact my parents directly" and that will force them to do things the "proper" way or drop the request.
Agree with other bees above. You can also tell them that the venue is at capacity and you cannot/will not invite anymore people.
Thanks ladies!
Yeah, his family is renting an RV to drive out here and they will be here for a full week before the wedding - I really don't think its a big deal for that couple to not be invited to the wedding, I even offered to invite them to all of the other wedding activities! I mean, geez!
I feel like I am talking to a wall with FI about this. While he understands why we will not invite them, he takes it very personally when I mention "common sense" or "proper ettiquette" or even "general good manners." He thinks I am putting down his family, which isn't my intention, I just don't know any other way to put it.
I asked him to tell his mother to call my mother directly next time if this arises, although I hope it doesn't.
Honestly, if there is a side that has more people invited, it should be the side that pays for the wedding. We have been very generous in including all of these people, EVEN the recent additions. This new set just put me over the top. And, then suggesting that they "crash" the wedding with no invitation and after the dinner portion is over? Oh my.
To my FMIL's credit, she doesn't have any daughters and this is the first child's wedding, but still...
OMG! We will have a very small wedding, 40 or 50 tops. That is big to me since my wedding many many years ago was 15 guests! I hope there is no crazy desire to include superfluous people. I know bf wouldn't like that either!
I tend to agree with some of the other comments already posted. I think etiquette could also be understood as good manners and being empathic/kind/considerate of others. I think this request by the in-laws is inconsiderate, but it seems they don't see it as such because they think it just has to do with money and meeting their own needs to socialize with so-and-so. They're missing the real reason for the day: to celebrate you and your FI's marriage.
At this point, I'm not sure that telling your FI again what etiquette is and isn't, that it's just the way things are would be helpful. I'm sorry he isn't being more understanding, but he probably feels caught in the middle, and it isn't fun to be either of you right now! I would suggest forget about "etiquette" in your next conversation, and just explain why it bothers you so much that they're making all these requests. I think you have a right to be upset, but that it just needs to be communicated in a new, different way.
ETA: just saw your update, I'm sorry I'm being repetitive. I think a lot of what you just told us makes a lot of sense! Could you try (or try again) using the things you told us, leaving out those sticky phrases?
Ugh, it's tough. Since you don't seem to be getting anywhere on the "wedding etiquette" front, maybe it would be more helpful to just walk your FI through why each thing is not acceptable for your particular circumstances, and agree on what you'll do about it? I mean, at the end of the day, that's what matters, and sometimes when you get into a big disagreement like this, you end up with trigger words (like etiquette) that set the other person off. So instead of thinking "gee, you're right, we don't really want 4 other random strangers at our wedding... I'll tell mom that's not okay" he immediately goes to "you think my parents are boorish hicks". I'd try just talking about each situation as it comes up, and try not to make it a connected issue.
I have to say, though, for my two cents I think it's better that they're going to you not your parents for the guest list, because how are your parents to know who's really important to your FI? On paper someone may sound random but be in real life, they're super important. I have a second cousin once removed (I think that's the proper term, anyway) who I'm way closer to than any uncle. If I were your parents, I wouldn't want the job of having to sort out who's actual close to you and who's a crazy request. I agree about the paying for meals thing, though. People might think they're being polite, but to me it says I think the only possible reason you don't want to invite these people is money. Weddings aren't concerts - not just anybody can pay for a ticket and get in. You should only have people you really want there, regardless of if you can afford to invite more. Good luck!
@ChiCat - Actually, my mom requested that if FI's family wants to add on more people to just go to them directly. She thinks that they prefer to go through FI and then me because they are afraid to go to my parent's directly.
So far the extra people added have meant nothing to FI and I. They are just additional people his family would like to invite. What irks me even more about this is that my Dad is holding off on invititing a number of his friends in order to accomodate all of their additional people and these additional people don't even sound important to FI's family. My Dad is so generous and sweet and also so happy to be paying for the wedding that he is okay with sacrificing his friends so that everyone else is happy. That is another thing that bothers me. While I know that this isn't FI family's intention, I don't want my Dad's kindness to be taken advantage of - I want him to have his friends there too!!
In regards to his family offering to pay for the two additional people, since they have not offered to pay for any wedding expenses previously, my mom and I are quite put off by this. We have never asked for any money and like I said, my parents are happy to be doing this, but when they offer to pay for the extra 2 people, my parents take it negatively. Now, if in the beginning stages of planning his parents offered to help out with wedding related costs and my parents turned down the offer, that would be something entirely different. But that isn't the case.
I'm not sure that working out the invite list falls under ettiquete. I can see why his parents would go through your FI and you first, and if it's a big deal and your FI wants them invited he could tell his parents to call your parents. He could also tell them that he doesn't want them invited and that your dad isn't inviting some people because of the growing number of people. He could also ask them to help pay for the wedding.
I agree that it's silly to ask for random people to come to the wedding, but we had people come after dinner that were there locally but wouldn't have otherwise gotten an invite, and I've been to other weddings where this has been done.
Wow. I don't have any good suggestions, but I've been through this sort of stuff with my FI. He grew up here around dc but his whole family is from the midwest and he finds my new england-moved-to-dc family stuff too formal, what he calls "fancy", and I call "nice". He prefers things "relaxed", which I would term "casual" (or "sloppy", if I'm in a bad mood). But honestly, last-minute adding people is rude no matter where you're from.
The point of wedding etiquette is to eliminate confusion, so gestures have an accepted meaning and don't need to be interpreted based on a guess about what the person is thinking. The reason you move to a more formal manners for a wedding is that a wedding is an important ritual and as such it is easier to hurt feelings through misunderstandings, so clearing up confusion becomes more important. Basically, rituals mean doing things in ritual ways, and this is a ritual, otherwise his parents wouldn't care about being there, they'd just visit whenever.
But this may not help you. What you could try is couching it as your family's little quirks. After all, every family does things differently, and your parents are hosting this, so they are entitled to have people follow their ways, just as you and they would take your shoes off when entering your FIL's house (if they're like my midwestern FILs). It's not about the money, it's about the effort your parents are going to, which means they get some consideration, and following their "quirks" is an important part of that. Sure, their quirks happen to follow well-established societal manners, but phrasing it this way avoids hurting his feelings about his rude family.
I guess I did have some suggestions! Good luck, let us know how this plays out.
I don't know if I would say it's completely rude - because they just don't know any better. It's not like they told the people to just show up. THAT would be rude.
They are going through some crazy channel (via FI to you) because they aren't comfortable communicating with your mom directly - which, I can also understand.
You know that FI and his family don't get wedding protocol - and I think you need to leave it at that. They aren't going to magically get it between now and the wedding. FI will get better over time - but it's not worth fighting about.
Simply address the addition as you see fit. Either tell them, no - they cannot come - or, sure, we'd love to have them.
Can you also tell your FI to have his mom talk to your mom about any future additions? Or, FI needs to tell his mom to call your mom, if she talks to it about it. Don't entertain any more guest list additions from FI!
@Mrs. Louboutin - Ah, if your parents want direct communication, and your FI knows that everyone important has already been taken care of then yes, them continuing to put you in the middle vs going to your parents is rude (it really is hard to talk about their behavior without using that word!) What a frustrating situation. The only other thing I can suggest is to point out to him how his parents actions are hurting your parents. You're obviously trying really hard not to offend his parents, but he needs to be willing to back you up so that your parents don't get the short end of the stick by default (i.e. your dad not inviting his close friends to make room for random people his parents are just now thinking of). It's like the old saying "your rights end where mine begin" - his parent's right not to be made uncomfortable by being calling out on thoughtless behavior ends when their actions start to encroach on your parents rights not to be made uncomfortable by the results of those action. Awkwardly phrased, maybe, but I hope you can see what I mean :)
As someone else pointed out etiquette is norms and what is proper in one place is not proper in another. Labeling it common sense is putting down his family and calling them ignorant hicks which is IMO unjustified just as calling your family cold (the stereotype of formal families) would be unjustified.
The issue here is not etiquette. The issue is that their requests are too much.
Simple solution, tell them no, you have every right to save seats for you Dad's friends, no need to tell them that either, just, no more room available sorry. I actually love the line recommended above "I'm not sure, please talk to my parents" but it's probably too late to use that one.
P.S. I would strongly urge you not to tell your parents about various annoying things your FILs do - it will complicate your life in decades to come.
I think that it might be helpful, in talking to your FI, to leave etiquette out of things entirely and present it to him as a problem of logistics or feelings. He and his family clearly don't put much stock in Emily Post, but he certainly cares lots about YOU and your wedding.
My FI and I had a similar issue while planning, and I found that it helped a lot to explain why what his parents were doing made things difficult and could lead to an unpleasant situation or bad feelings. 'It's just not done that way" doesn't hold much water, but he really understood "It feels as though we're hosting a party for our parents rather than a celebration of our marriage, and it's stressful to be in the middle when we've got so many things on our plate."
I am sorry you are going through this! My ILs have also been a pain at times with the guestlist. Like, his Dad kinda sees our wedding as a work networking event for his job. Um, no, not happening!
Anyways, don't talk etiquette, just tell everyone that there is no more room in the reception space for additional guests. Guestlist closed, no room. That's the only thing that I have found people can't really argue.
Also, please don't allow her to invite that very distant family member for her convenience or anyone else at this point. You have enough stress with the wedding coming up. Good luck.
I think all the other bees have you covered in the advice realm, so I just wanted to chime in and say that I totally empathize and feel for you on this! I have a sympathy headache just from reading it ;) Good luck!
Thanks ladies, I really appreciate it. My FI spoke to his mother today and told her in no uncertain terms that these additional people will not be invited and that the guest list is officially closed. I think at this point, that is all we can do.
In terms of dealing with ettiquette and what is proper, I think the suggestion of discussing how certain things his family does makes me or my family feel (insert whatever here) rather than commenting on their poor manners, etc is going to really help when this arises in the future.
Even though this guest list issue was the tip of the iceburg, this lack of understanding proper ettiquette or even common courtesy has been a common theme in our relationship whenever it involves his family. I'm going to try to use this suggestions. Thanks ladies!
Honestly it's not even about etiquette at this point. You don't have any extra invites. Besides it's not even like these people are truly invited. If you do want to say it's about etiquette then just tell him that it's a standard way of treating people with respect and due diligence.
I can see this situation has been mostly resolved, but what concerns me is the precident your FMIL is setting for the rest of you and FI's married lives. It sounds to me like she has some hidden(?) control issues and that she is possibly insecure about her son getting married. By continuing to throw a wrench in your plans and using her son to manipulate the situation, she is being both backwardly controlling and directly insulting (the whole situation with her 'paying' for the additional 2 guests has me steamed!)
You don't want her to think any time she wants to get her way/is unhappy over something in the future she can snarkily say something to FI and he will pass it on to you. The two of you need to make a pact here and now to be a united front-meaning if his mother asks him to tell you something he knows is upsetting or out of line-he should refuse, and tell her to talk to you herself. I have a feeling if she had to tell you these things directly, she wouldn't have the gall to do it. Futhermore, if she DID actually talk to you directly and said something like "Well, we will PAY for the extra 2 guests", you can calmly (and without insults or pettiness-even if it KILLS you!!!) state that you are hurt by her comments. That you feel like she is being unfair as your family did not object to a single guest prior to this point...etc, etc. and that you are really sad she thinks this is an issue of money rather than courtesy/manners. What else can she say but sorry? It might be just the reality check she needs. Plus, you are being direct with her about how you feel.
Just my two cents, but I feel like being honest makes very convoluted arguments simple very quickly. As a Midwesterner myself, I can firmly state this type of behavior is just as unacceptable here as it is anywhere else-bad manners do not know geographical boundaries.
Thank you Miss Iowa! I agree.
One of my problems with FMIL is that she is very needy when it comes to my FI (even though she has 3 other sons, one of whom is getting married next month too!). We are the only ones who live out of state. For this, I am very grateful since I don't have to see her much.
She calls my FI every other week or so and cries because she "misses" him so much. Look lady, don't you want your son to be successful? He makes a lot more money at his job out here than he would back home. One of her other sons' girlfriends hates her, with the fire of one thousand suns for bossing her BF around and making him also help pay their mortgage.
There are a lot of issues here. I really want to get them fixed now, but at the same time, since we live across the country, we see them very infrequently. We don't even go there for holidays since he would prefer to be with my family out here. My family is very generous, does not place monetary requests on us and also isn't intrusive. Each time we go to visit his family, they put him to work with chores as soon as we get there. The last time we visited for a week long "vacation," I ended up in tears 4 days in because we were basically just running errands for them the whole time.
I'm going on and on now. Long story short, you are right. My one saving grace is the fact that we live so far away. We'll see how it goes though.
That's awful! My FI's parents are totally wedding ettiquette ignorant, but they didn't pull anything like this... We had a LITTLE issue with the guest list.. we complied their list, then sent it back to them, so that they could get the addresses, when they sent it back it had 3 or 4 names added that it didn't have originally, but this was probably 5 months out, and we were doing our own invites... so no issues..
I'm sorry to hear they are being difficult. I feel bad for every bride that has stressful stuff going on.. planning is stressful enough, and people don't realize that... good luck mrs. louboutin
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Bees, I'm at my wit's ends! I need help!
My parents who are hosting our wedding (and paying for the entire thing) and I are very into proper wedding ettiquette. My FI and his family don't understand. His family is also from out of state, so any questions/ comments are filtered from his mom, to him, to me, to my parents. His mom has never called my mom to discuss any wedding plans, which isn't a big deal, but when we first got engaged and my mom called his mother, she didn't even return the call.
Anyway, fast forward to now. The guest list is set, the invitations are literally being printed as we speak, the envelopes are already with the calligrapher and we keep getting requests to expand the guest list. We are inviting 220 people right now and just over 60% on the guest list are FI's guests/family.
Last night I had it. I received a request to invite FI's uncle's ex-wife's new husband's brother and his wife. Did you follow that? It took FI 5 times explaining the connection for me to get it right. The reason being is that they live locally to where our wedding will take place and FI's family woud like to spend some time with them. Also, the offer to pay their own way was thrown in (their first offer to pick anything up) as well as if it's "too expensive", what if they just show up after dinner.
In my mind, this is a breach of so many different ettiquette protocols. FI and I got into a huge fight over this. He agreed that this request was ridiculous, but when I said that it was completely rude for various reasons such as: FI's mom should have called my parents who are hosting rather than go through him and then me (again), they should not have offered to pay for the 2 additional meals, (FI thinks not offering to pay for the meals is bad ettiquette, where I think its the opposite), and they should not have sprung this on us at this time. In the past two weeks, we have already added 4 more people for them.
FI doesn't understand wedding ettiquette. Neither does his family. He said that they do things differently in the midwest and that by me complaining about the lack of ettiquette and them putting us in a bad position, I'm basically saying his family has no manners.
I have tried a dozen different ways to explain why there is wedding ettiquette and why its important, but FI just doesn't get it. Does anyone have any advice that will make sense to him? I've tried sending him links to WB, which he won't read.
My biggest problem is these requests, which should go directly to the people hosting the party aren't and its causing fights between FI and I because we are put in the middle.
Help!