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My traditional vows say something along the lines of "...Will you promise to obey your husband in all things sensible & pleasing to God?"
I was talking to my FSIL about our vows recently and she was horrified! She said that that line is archaic & that just because I'm becoming someones wife doesn't mean I'm his property! I get that & I agree that I'm no one's "property". However, I have interpreted those vows a little differently. I see it as more of a promise to respect my husband & his opinions. To each their own.
So do your vows say anything about obeying your husband? If they do, are you keeping it in or removing it? Our minister/church does give us the option to remove that line as its been controversial in the past! :)
haha, this one has came up in our premarital. I think that for our church, the wording is "honor and submit". But our mentoring couple explained to us that for wives to "submit" to husbands, this required the husband to sacrifice their needs and placing the wives needs above theirs FIRST. Thus allowing the wives the joy of "voluntarily submit" to husbands' wills according to the bible. Speaking in terms like that, what wife would not joyfully "submit" to their husband, knowing that the husband has/will sacrifice all for her?
I have to agree with your FSIL on this one. We are having that part omitted from our vows. He doesn't get asked that question, so I should not be asked that question. If you want to keep the wording mostly the same, you could consider changing the "obey" to respect, but the choice is ultimately up to you.
whose definition of "sensible" are you using? lol
Our justice of the peace threw in a line like this for our vows- my husband rolled his eyes. He knew it was never going to happen.
lol your responses are hilarious!!
I'll probably leave it in because I like a little controversy! Plus I like making my FSIL nuts since she's always on my case for something...
@maureen: lol your reply got me to read that line of the vows to my FI and he scoffed & said "Yeah right". Then I explained my interpretation & he laughed even harder.
Hell no! Haha, just doesn't suit our relationship. We are writing our own vows, though, so it wasn't really an issue.
I don't think the word "obey" adequately represents what you believe it to, Recessionista. I personally think it represents an unequal marriage where the husband makes the rules and the wife must obey... not exactly "property" but close. I would suggest the word "submit" as loveapril said. The principle of "wifely submission" can be found in the Bible, and when practiced correctly with the husband doing his part of thinking of his wife first in all decisions, it can be good for marriage and not bad for the woman. "Obey" is just not a very positive word and I don't think the qualifiers of "sensible and pleasing to God" make it more positive. That's my perception, though - you should do what is right for you and your FI. We are using the same exact vows for both of us, and vowing to respect and honor each other equally.
PS: Not to be all high and mighty, but you also shouldn't vow something that both you and your FI don't except you to carry out! :)
@danielle: I don't think you're being high & mighty! I really don't know what I'm going to use yet- thats why I'm asking what other brides are doing! I was just poking fun at my FSIL & my FI was poking fun at me. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear! :)
@love, @danielle: In reality, submit is just a more pleasant sounding term than obey. They are interchangeable in the Bible.
Submit means "To yield, resign, or surrender to power, will, or authority; to acquiesce or commit to the judgment of another."
Obey means "To give ear to; to yield submission to; to comply with the orders of."
I will discuss it with the minister and my FI! Thank you for your suggestions :)
That line will be removed from my vows. I might reconsider if he were to have to say it too ;) I'm all for a complete 50/50 relationship (although I know at different points in time that ratio will shift one way or another and back) and "obey" or "submit" just don't go along with my line of thinking. (I will admit to not being religious at all, so I know this line is taken differently in a religious context).
In regards to obey vs. submit, I honestly agree that they are interchangeable and more traditional. I know that back in the day, it was much more normal for the man to make decisions about taking a job transfer, etc, without his wife having an equal say. I still see that in some marriages today - R's aunt and uncle decided a move across states that way, and it's just crazy to me. I couldn't imagine not making that big of a decision together.
If you have the type of relationship where you feel that you are truly partners, though - on 50/50, equal ground, not "separate but equal" line of thinking - then I would leave it out. Like another poster said, he doesn't say it to you.
But when you get right down to it, they are just words. They're symbolic of your union, not the end-all, be-all marriage clause. If you use submit or don't, it will not change your relationship. It's just the general sentiment behind it that I find uncomfortable.
I once heard a woman vow to make her husband his favorite lasagna twice a month & fold his socks instead of roll them up in a ball :)
absolutely not! majority of churches took that language out actually. only very conservative churches insist on keeping it in.
they are your vows, and technically you are saying them because you plan on upholding them, so if yall dont want to say them then leave it out.
for instance, we are leaving out "if anyone here, has any reason... that these folks should not be joined..." etc, because i dont want to risk haivng to beat someone down in the ceremony :)
@spaganya: lol... but your wedding would be so much more fun with a beat down Bridewars style! :)
@recessionista - that is SO how it would go too!!! "OH NO THAT B*TCH DI'NT!!!!" *head roll and throw down bouquet*
hehehehehhehehee :)
Well, Orthodox ceremonies don't have vows, so that particular line isn't an issue. However, the priest does say a line something like 'the man is the head and he shall be over her' (paraphrasing - probably quite off on the actual wording). The first time I heard it, I FREAKED, but my godmother told me that in her village in Greece, the bride steps on her husband's foot at that moment. I think we will probably include that little ritual in our church wedding.
As to the Canadian vow renewal, we are using lyrics from our song: "This is not meant to be something fun, this is meant to be a love affair, so if you walk with me, you walk with me through whatever.' The image of walking together works much better with the vision we have for our relationship that any kind of obediance/submission language. However, if I had to choose more traditional language for my wedding vows, I would probably use the words 'honour and respect' in both parts.
Okay, as a wedding officiant, I have to say...I do not have any vows that say obey or submit in them. When I allow a couple to pick from my many many versions of vows, they will never see that word in any of them. I do not feel a woman should have to promised to obey to anyone. Those vows were actually from a long time ago when it was thought that the woman was of lesser value than a male. But if a couple insisted on having them in their vows, I would also let them have that option.
We aren't doing "obey", but in addition to the gut reaction against it, we felt like it was important for us to promise the same things to each other in order to have an equal relationship. So even if it was something non controversial like promising to support the other person in good times and bad- I would want us both to promise that to each other, not just one person, and have the other person promise to do something different, you know?
Plus, I don't like what "obey" implies about the way a couple should communicate and solve problems. To me that says that, while the man should take the woman's needs and opinions into consideration, he gets to make the decision. I don't think that's enough. Both parties should come to a decision they both support- and if they really can't agree they should both voluntarily submit to each other so that one person isn't always over ruled.
That's how I see it anyway, but what is most important is that your understanding of the vows matches what you perceive your goals in your relationship to be, and that can be different for each different couple.
@bamm - remember the saying "the man may be the head of the house, but the wife is the neck and she can turn the head any way she wants!"
No thanks. We're also not using any wording referring to marriage being a union between man and woman.
Our baptist preacher let us put pieces together to make our ceremony. There were like, 8 sections and from each section there were 5 passages we could choose.
We omitted the "marriage is between a man and woman" part and also anything about obeying or submitting unto my husband.
They rub me the wrong way and I didn't want my vows to do that.
Those will words will not be anywhere in anything lol..That's a little too much for my taste...and my SO knows that if I did say them I would be lying in church not a good thing lol
I think as long as you are both comfortable saying it (and really, really mean what you are saying - its your vows, after all!) then you should totally keep it in there. Your vows need to be meaningful to you and your FH, not your FSIL!
As for me, we're saying very traditional, church vows but they don't say anything about obedience. We also didn't choose any of the Bible verses that talk about obedience, either. I have some friends that find that aspect of Christian marriage to be really important to them, but my FI and I see it differently. To each their own, I guess!
We are likely not going to have "obey" in our wedding vows. We're having a Catholic ceremony with a Mass, and that isn't a part of the vows. The only place it could come up is if we choose a reading that talks about wives being submissive to husbands.
No, I specifically told the minister I didn't want the word obey in the vows. So it's not in there.
If you're both comfortable, go for it - but I think that's one of the more controversial phrases these days. I personally don't want to say it, because I'd be lying based on how I interpret the phrase.
@recessionista-I agree with some other bees that if you dont plan to follow through with the vows and "obey the husband" or whatever then I would just leave that part out. I think it is a good idea to meet with the minister...im sure you will find a more appropriate option for the two of you :)
LOL@ spaganya and her b*tch throwdown!
FI and I make jokes about this line. We wrote our own vows, or at least wrote our ketubah - not sure how much of that will be in the vows yet since Jews don't really say vows the same way. But, the whole thing is all we will... and we promise... - all equal and about things like supporting each other and sharing our lives together. I wouldn't say something I don't believe.
No way. It doesn't matter for me because we wrote our entire ceremony ourselves, but if we were going to have a ceremony with traditional vows, I'd absolutely remove that.
Would I obey my husband? Absolutely yes!
Would I change the traditional vows? Absolutely no! I'm having a very traditional wedding :)
From what I've learned in marriage counseling it's one of the biblical principles for wives to obey and submit to the authority of their husbands. It's in Ephesians chapter five:
"Wives submit yourselves to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church; and he is the saviour of the body,. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." Ephesians 5; 22-25 KJV
Those bees that have bibles should crack open their bibles to Ephesians chapter 5 and read about marriage...
... obey? I didn't obey my parents when I was a kid, I DEFININTELY don't obey my managers at work... both sets of people tried to tell me what to do. I'm what all kinds of psychologists have called a "problem child" and "headstrong" and "strong-willed." But... Mr. KM doesn't try to tell me what to do- partly because he knows better and partly because he doesn't feel like it's his place to. Do I respect him and love him and highly value his opinion? Absolutely- we are moving to freaking Connecticut for him to go to school! But I'm not keen on ANYONE telling me what to do. I would leave it out just because if someone heard that in my vows they'd have a kneejerk reaction of "YEAH RIGHT!" if it related to me.
We did the traditional vows 'cause I just love them, and I honestly can't recall if we had that line-I'd say no. (They really moderned up the service in the booklet we used). If there is a line about him obeying you, great. If not, I'd ditch it only if you feel strongly about it. If you read it the way you mentioned, I don't see it as a reason to get your undies in a bundle (or anyone else to either).
No vow to 'obey' or 'submit' by either party. We vowed to love, respect and commit ourselves to each other. Marriage is a partnership, and neither side has higher status than the other. In our eyes, placing such language in the vows or elsewhere in the ceremony was not setting the right tone for the beginning of our marriage.
We were also careful not to choose any Biblical readings that had reference to the wife submitting herself to her husband or how the wife is defined by the home. Since the Catholic Church has only a set number of readings to choose from, we selected ones that focused on love and peace. Those are sentiments everyone can agree with.
My FI was very passionate about having none of the obey him, worship him in our ceremony. I agree.
haha KM...i agree. My mom had a book called "the difficult child" when I was a kid. Will I obey my SO? No. But yes, I would change the words to respect.
@thefuturemrs.gibbs- that's not really fair. There are plenty of bees (including myself) who are people of faith and still don't want the "obey" language. It's not that we're ignorant of what Ephesians says, but that we understand it differently, particularly in light of the requirement in that same chapter that husbands practice a self sacrificing love for their wives (how come no one ever talks about that part!?) and the overall thrust of the bible (as I read it) is for uplifting the value of woman toward a more equal partnership in marriage in a culture which seriously devalued the woman's role. You may understand the bible as supporting the "obey" language- and that's fine. But don't imply that other bees who disagree don't know or care about the bible themselves.
I tried to stay away from things like that in our catholic readings and vows.
@futuremrsgibbs - well, I have a Bible, but I very strongly disagree with that definition of marriage! I think regardless of faith, how one was raised, etc, marriage is between the two people entering the union. And for those bees who do believe in God, it is up to them and their significant others to decide what they believe about that particular verse, but I think you'll find that it's often left out of religious ceremonies in this day in age.
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