(Closed) A “feminist” discussion….

posted 10 years ago in The Lounge
  • poll: Your feminist standpoint......

    I am a feminist and make it known

    I am a feminist but don't often share my opinions/views.

    Don't care...

    What is feminism?

    Not a feminist at all.

  • Post # 47
    Member
    1747 posts
    Bumble bee

    I am pro woman for sure!

    Post # 48
    Member
    90 posts
    Worker bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

    What luckyprincess just said. When you say you’re not a feminist, that means you don’t believe women and men should have equal rights. I don’t understand how any woman in the 21st century could accept being treated as a second-class citizen.

    Post # 49
    Member
    265 posts
    Helper bee
    • Wedding: June 2011

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    @Mrs.KMM many feminists use feminism NOT to take their husband’s name for a variety of reasons.

    Uhm, yeah, that’s me! I chose not to take my FI’s name because the whole name swap business has a nasty, unfeminist history (women as property, etc.) I want to set an example for my future daughters and sons that we’re are not less of a family because I have a different last name; a defense I see often in favour of name changing. 

    I don’t think my reasons for not changing my last name are any more “bogus” than a name-changing lady saying something like ‘we’re just not a family if our names aren’t the same.’ 

    No judgment if you’re changing your name, bees. I just think that changing your name to be more of a family (clearly an emotional decision because obviously you are still legally a family if you don’t) is no more or less “bogus” than not changing it because of the nasty history of name changing (a decision based on history.) It’s just two different ways of looking at things. And I’m pretty insulted that my reasons are deemed “bogus” and “not something (FutureKMM) wants to be associated with.” 

     

    Post # 50
    Member
    14492 posts
    Honey Beekeeper
    • Wedding: June 2011

    @luckyprincess – I said no to feminism, and let me explain why.

    When I was a kid, my mom used to take me to the movement marches.  She and other fought for equal pay etc, etc, etc.. I truely understand the conditions that women worked under because I lived it, watch my mother fight it, and never had to have it explained to me.

    I believe in equal pay, the right to vote, and choose my major.  These issues are decided, they are law.  Done

    The problem that I find with “feminist” is the modern progression of the “feminist”.  I find most of the doctrination of feminism has moved to the level of misogynistic.  It is not the same “feminism” that it was in 1975, no, it is a corrupted version of the things my mother fought for.  I am on all the mailing list for most of the organizations (I work in politics), and the stuff I get from the “feminist” groups most reach the level of appauling.  When I show my mother the mailings, it will send her into a tyrade of what these people have done to “feminism”.

    Having to take “women’s issues” courses in college in not feminist, it’s reverse sexism.  Universities have been sued for having “male issues” courses.

    Gay rights is not a feminist issue, it’s a human rights issue.

    “There are still women that exibit the best of womanhood.  They stand up for the underdog, the poor, and the disadvantaged.  This is a cultural advance, balancing the more aggressive tendencies of men bent on aggression.

    Somewhere along the line, some women, abandoned the womanly high road for ambition, power and greed.  Where have the feminine qualities of hope, love, and charity gone?  These are the truely powerful characteristics of women.  There is a certain cutthroat mentality which bodes ill for the world, and now, women are active participants.”  Feminism Corrupted 1998

     

    Post # 51
    Member
    1267 posts
    Bumble bee

    View original reply
    @tksjewelry

    Thank you for responding!!

    I guess I just don’t buy into this new thinking that we’re supposed to pretend that the definition of feminist isn’t a supporter of EQUAL rights for men and women.  As much as people try to bastardize a movement, it doesn’t change the definition.  To say, imo, that you aren’t a feminist has to explicably mean that you do not believe in equality for women.  There are plenty of zealots that call themselves Muslim, Christian, whatever and then call for violence and death.  That doesn’t change what a Christian or Muslim really is. 

    If my Mom had fought to end slavery and was then, by definition an abolitionist and NOW some idiots used the term ‘abolitionist’ for their movement and wanted to enslave whites for ‘payback’ it doesn’t change the meaning of abolitionist.  The wrong side wins when we let them dictate the meaning of a word like feminist.  Does that make sense?  I think that the empowered thing to do is take the definition back. 

    And in all honesty (I guess this makes me bad?) I really think that your final quote makes it sound like a strong, competitive woman is a bad thing.  It kind of reads like we’re supposed to just always be, like I constantly get pissed about here, unicorns, puppy dogs and rainbows.  I think that hope, love and charity are a HUMAN quality, not one that is just ‘womanly’ and certainly not the only qualities I should posses….

    Post # 52
    Member
    90 posts
    Worker bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

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    @tksjewelry Yep, I’m just gonna follow you around and say YES! to everything you write. Well said!

    View original reply
    @tksjewelry I would be interested in hearing what the mailings you receive say. I’ve never gotten anything from a women’s organization that disparages men (which is called misandry, not misogyny, just FYI). Also, who wrote the piece you’re quoting from? I googled it and can’t find anything.

    Post # 53
    Member
    630 posts
    Busy bee
    • Wedding: September 2011

    Being a feminist simply means you recognize that women are still treated unequally in some ways, and that you believe in equal rights. Every movement has extremists. Unfortunately in the case of feminism, the extremists are all many people associate with the word or the movement. 

    Post # 53
    Member
    6391 posts
    Bee Keeper
    • Wedding: September 2011

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    @mightywombat We put that quote on t-shirts for the feminist club at college. 🙂

    I think a lot of people see being a feminist as a negative thing, and I still have no idea why. The paygap is hovering around 25%. Pay me and treat me equally, and I’ll stop trying to do something about it.

    Post # 54
    Member
    630 posts
    Busy bee
    • Wedding: September 2011

    View original reply
    @tksjewelry Since you seem to believe in the original feminist cause, maybe you should be fighting to regain the original meaning of “Feminist”. not abandoning the cause and title altogether. A true, 1970s feminist, wouldn’t give up  😉

    Post # 55
    Member
    3600 posts
    Sugar bee
    • Wedding: January 1992

    I generally follow “gender roles” for myself, but I am totally capable of switching those bad boys up. I just happen to like the more traditionally female things.  For example, Mr. Dear opens tightly closed jar lids for me.

    Post # 56
    Member
    4122 posts
    Honey bee
    • Wedding: October 2010

    Disclaimer: I wasn’t planning on commenting, but as people wan’t to know about “others” I will. These are my views and I ask that they are respected.. and I find it sad that I’m even having to say that.

     
    I view myself as a feminist but I think that the current “feminism” is doing a disservice to women and I don’t consider myself a “feminist” in the sense of what many people seem to mean. It seems that in order for us to be “equal” these days that means we have to be “like” men or better. We strip ourselves of our fertility, we put off children until “it’s safe for our career.” Men don’t have to take a pill that is a group 1 carcinogen* every day nor would they. They can start a family whenever they darn well want. I think it’s an absolute shame that the health of women has gone downhill so far in the past 40 years but everyone is happy because “we can vote.” What good is voting when we’re developing cancer more frequent and earlier? When we are dying? When infertility is skyrocketing? Do not mistake what I said, I didn’t say it’s not important for women to vote, but what is the cost and why are we paying it?

    Did African Americans have to change ANYTHING about themselves in order to achieve equality? Do those who are LGBT have to change something? If anything, the media pushes to “be exactly who you are,” well, unless you’re a woman… in that case you need to be like men. 

    Well, guess what, we’re women. We ARE different than men, and that’s OK! Yes, we should be paid the same, we should vote, we are no less human. We should not be penalized for having a child as it’s an immense privilege to be able to… Women ARE more nurturing, caring, and loving. We shouldn’t feel like we can’t be… and that’s what the current feminism is doing.

    If we want to embrace the opportunities before us, if we want to be just as successful as “men are,” If we want to fulfill our dreams we need to EMBRACE our differences, have respect for ourselves, and respect for our bodies the way they are. We also need to have respect for women who are in “traditional” gender roles… instead of making them feel guilty for it or less important or worthy than an executive.

    *As classified by the World Health Organization

    View original reply
    @tksjewelry I’ve seen a BUNCH… a LOT of that stuff. I’m assuming you’re talking about the stuff that puts men BELOW women?

    Post # 57
    Member
    90 posts
    Worker bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

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    @KLP2010 I’ve got to run so I won’t have time to address the rest of your post, but you seem to think that feminism means devaluing anything traditionally female, hence your comment about making women feel guilty for being in traditional gender roles. That’s the exact opposite of what feminism really is.

    The goal of feminism is to allow women to have the same opportunity for making choices as men have. If a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom, that’s fine, as long as it’s her choice and not something she’s forced into. Men should also be free to stay at home if it’s their choice, and the fact that they often don’t feel that they can do that is something feminists want to fix. If I want to be an executive, and my husband wants to be a stay at home dad, then I damn well want him to have the option to do that, and I would fight for his freedom of choice – not only because I want him to be happy, but because without a stay at home parent, my own opportunities as an executive would be limited. (Note: this is purely hypothetical, as my Fi and I are never having kids and I’d rather chew off my own arm than be a corporate executive.)

    What organizations are sending stuff that puts men below women? I’d like to know so that I can avoid them. Anything I’ve ever gotten is devoted to making women equal to men, not putting the men down.

    Post # 58
    Member
    1077 posts
    Bumble bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

    I’ve been using the word egalitarian a lot lately…not b/c I have an issue with “feminist…but b/c others seem to get defensive when it’s uttered.  

    I respect the hell out of everything that flag waving feminists have done for us.  I was still one of only two women in my lab in grad school.  No woman had ever had a baby before tenure in my department.  Equality is still not fully realized here, so I think that it’s an on going struggle.

    I also see boys falling behind on average in HS/undergrad and don’t think that’s a positive outcome either.  If there is a social situation that is causing a gender to fall behind or be held back, I think it’s important to try to improve it.

    Post # 59
    Member
    31 posts
    Newbee

    Not all feminists feel that women need to be better than men. If you believe that all feminists do is spew their hatred of men then that means you must believe that…

    All Muslims hate America.

    All Germans during WWII were Nazis and hated Jews.

    And all Christians hate gay people.

    …but wait, just because SOME people say things like that doesn’t mean EVERY person that is _____ feels that way??

    Woww!

    Then why are all feminists considered “haters of all men and the traditional way of life”

    I don’t think being a feminist is a bad thing. If that means that I can take honors classes in high school, play sports, get scholarship money to go to school, pick a major in whatever I decide, get a job in a male dominated field, keep my money that I worked hard for, get the best medical care, have kids, be taken seriously, and defend myself, then so be it, i’m a feminist!

    Women have always been forced to change. Before women’s rights if you were an outspoken woman you had to shut up and listen to your father/husband/son. You had no rights and no one cared what you had to say. So at least now you have the choice to be loud and proud or docile and content or anywhere in between.

    equal rights for women SHOULD be a Human rights issue but it never gets treated that way.

    And why is it ok for women to be called bitches but you can’t call anyone else a derogatory name?? I never understood that. Does anyone else find that irritating??

     

    This is definately an interesting conversation.

    Post # 60
    Member
    2392 posts
    Buzzing bee
    • Wedding: September 2011

    View original reply
    @KLP2010  I agree that we need to allow and respect women to take on traditional gender roles.  It’s easy to fall into a trap of pushing for equality at the cost of devaluing the work that was traditionally women’s work.  BUT I think it’s a really dangerous trap and one that takes us further away from equality.

    As a feminist, I think it’s very important to recognize how challenging and important the work of raising children and running a household is.  As a feminist, it is very important that this work is not only valued and respected, but an open option to BOTH women AND men.  One of the things that scares me about the state of gender roles today is how the realm of traditional male stereotypes is open to everyone, but anything that’s stereotypically female is disparaged.

    But I think there’s a huge difference between saying it’s important to place value on the traditionally feminine and putting it on a pedestal that all women should aspire to.  I can speak only for myself, but I have no interest in staying home and raising a family.  While women in general may be more nurturing than men, I am about nurturing as an under-watered cactus.  I have zero interest in raising children, and after about ten minutes of doing housework I am ready to punch someone.  Whereas I love earning a paycheck and feeling like I am supporting myself and my partner. 

    Just because I don’t want that role though doesn’t mean I don’t respect it, though.  On the contrary, I’m pretty impressed by people who can be patient and nurturing because it’s something I totally lack. 

    This got long, but I think what I wanted to touch on was that for me feminism and equality is also very much about placing value on the traditionally feminine and working towards a world where both men and women are free to choose the path they wish.

    The topic ‘A “feminist” discussion….’ is closed to new replies.

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