(Closed) A “feminist” discussion….

posted 10 years ago in The Lounge
  • poll: Your feminist standpoint......

    I am a feminist and make it known

    I am a feminist but don't often share my opinions/views.

    Don't care...

    What is feminism?

    Not a feminist at all.

  • Post # 61
    Member
    90 posts
    Worker bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

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    @Entangled “about as nurturing as an under-watered cactus” is fabulous, I’m totally stealing that Laughing

    Post # 62
    Member
    1480 posts
    Bumble bee
    • Wedding: December 2010

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    @KLP2010 So well said, all of you!

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    @KLP2010 True feminism has nothing to do with putting men down so women can step on them on the way up. As has been mentioned before, citing radical feminist perspectives to prove the demise of “good feminism” is not really a viable argument.

    And I’m just going to say it… that quote you pulled, it pissed me off. That’s not feminism. That’s anti-feminism. In fact, the language in those two paragraphs is rife with anti-feminist language. I mean come on, “the womanly high road”? Are you serious? And by the way, misogyny is literally means “hatred of women,” so I don’t think that was the word you were looking for.

    Qualities of good character do not BELONG to men, or BELONG to women. Feminism is the belief that men/women/LGBTQ people are all just people, and that we have more in common with each other as people than differences between genders.

    Ambition is a quality often attributed to great men – leaders, innovators, men who had the power and vision to do great things for the world. And yet, when women have ambition, they’re slammed for being power-hungry and greedy? That’s classic anti-feminist discourse, the idea that women can be great, but only if they do it in a “womanly” way – showing hope, love, and charity by helping those who are even lesser than they are (by doing the work that the men don’t want to bother with).

    May I also point out that this kind of discourse is also very harmful to men? To say that qualities like hope, love and charity are “womanly” qualities perpetuates the idea that “real men” need to be hard and stoic, never show their vulnerability or feelings.

    I absolutely reject that, and so does every other feminist I know. We believe that good character and heart is the same whether it comes in the form of a man or a woman. We believe that men can be as good at nurturing and caring as any woman, and that women can be just as ambitious and authoritative as any man. And we believe that NEITHER women NOR men should be disparaged for simply being who they are as people.

     

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    @KLP2010 As a woman in a traditionally male-dominated, high-powered, white collar profession, I guess I’m one of those bad feminists in your eyes. Well I can tell you right now that as a feminist, I’m not going to put you down for choosing a more family friendly career path.

    I do plan on being a mother within the next few years. I do plan on staying home with my kids for some time. I think that will be the most important work I will ever do. If DH and I could afford to start a family right now, we would!

    But it’s because of feminism that I have this job that pays well enough for us to save for a comfortable future. It’s because of feminism that my employer couldn’t use “She’s a woman, she’s just going to leave in two years to start having babies” as a reason not to hire me. It’s because of feminism that employment legislation ensures that I will continue getting paid while taking time to have and care for my babies, and still have a job waiting for me when I’m ready to come back. In light of all that, I find it really ironic that you cite men being able to start families whenever they want as an argument against feminism.

    Feminism didn’t take anything from women or force women to do anything they don’t want to do. Women who put off having children to get more established in their careers are CHOOSING to do that. If you don’t want that, then by all means! Find a guy who earns enough to support a family on one salary and get cracking! But if you can’t afford to have kids yet, or if you want kids and a career with no breaks, that’s not feminism’s fault!

    Women are not being forced to take BC pills because of feminism. Believe it or not, it’s a choice. I’m a feminist and I don’t use the pill. But the pill has improved the lives of so many women because it puts reproductive, and also sexual choice (hey, there’s that word again!) solely in the hands of women.

    Bottom line, feminism is about CHOICE. If you don’t see that, you’re either totally missing the point, or you’ve bought into all the trashy rhetoric being spouted by those who want to put women “back in their place” – barefoot in the kitchen. Sorry, that’s all it is.

    Post # 63
    Member
    1480 posts
    Bumble bee
    • Wedding: December 2010

    Oh, and I’d like to add this – it’s because of feminists that women finally had their work in the house recognized as real work with real, quantifiable monetary value in courts of law.

    Back in the day, a woman who gave up her potential for an education and a career in order to stay home and take care of the household and raise children was totally effing screwed if her husband left her. Sure, she’d get a little money out of it, but when you’re 40 years old with no credentials and no work experience, how are you going to stretch that joke of a payout for the next 30 years?

    It’s because of feminist law and policy that the courts began recognizing how unfair this was to women that the men were reaping all the benefits of having a wife at home, and began to order fair compensation for these women’s work.

     

    Post # 64
    Member
    90 posts
    Worker bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

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    @jayce You rock. Thanks for writing out everything I didn’t have the time to articulate today!

    Post # 65
    Member
    5496 posts
    Bee Keeper
    • Wedding: April 2010

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    @jayce Love everything you wrote! I agree 100%.

    Post # 66
    Member
    1267 posts
    Bumble bee

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    @madcat

    Lol – thanks sister!!

    Post # 67
    Member
    13094 posts
    Honey Beekeeper
    • Wedding: July 2010

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    @Jillbean You’re twisting my words just as some of the other PPs did earlier.  I said in multiple of my posts that I have ZERO PROBLEM with people choosing not to change their last name.  That is their individual choice and doesn’t affect me in any way, shape or form.

    I take issue when people flat out refuse to take their husband’s name “in the name of feminism”.  That isn’t what feminism is about and twisting it into something it’s not is wrong, IMO.  So congrats on choosing not to change your name – feminism give you that choice.  But IMO, its twisting what feminism is about to call out feminism as your reason behind your choice.

    My issues with feminism as a whole is that in today’s world it has been twisted and corrupted from its original form of women’s equality.  Multiple other PPs have posted at length about this so I won’t re-post their comments but if today’s feminism was truely just women’s equality, I’d be ahppy to be a part of it.  But its not and I don’t like what it has become.

    Post # 68
    Member
    90 posts
    Worker bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

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    @Mrs.KMM Wait, so you’re saying that feminism gave women the opportunity to keep their names, but now it’s a bad thing to cite feminism as the reason for keeping one’s name? Hell yeah, feminism is the reason I’m keeping my name. If men took their wives’ names at the same rate women took their husbands’, I’d have no problem with it. It is an equality issue.

    I would really like to know where you and the other anti-feminism posters are getting the idea that feminism has been so twisted. I keep asking where people are getting that idea, and I haven’t gotten an answer yet. Links?

    Post # 69
    Member
    106 posts
    Blushing bee
    • Wedding: September 2013

    I’m an out and loud feminist! I was raised by an ardent feminist and I even attended one of “those” all-womens feminist college.

    I am loving the smart, intelligent responses on this thread! Admittedly, I am totally baffled by those who “are not feminists but believe in equal rights”. Also baffled by the comments about not agreeing with “today’s feminism”. Hm.

    I just want to throw this out there, as I’ve seen it also thrown out there a few times in this thread already… As a queer-identified person, I know there are some very real differences between the feminist movement and the civil rights LGBTQ movement- but at the end of the day, it is the same fight. Feminism, LGBTQ, and civil rights are all the awknowledgement that all people are equal people, and no person deserves more or less pay/respect/rights/human decency because of gender-identity, sex, sexuality, race, etc. It should not be a profound or radical notion. I simply wish that people are more humane to one another.

    Post # 70
    Member
    14492 posts
    Honey Beekeeper
    • Wedding: June 2011

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    @luckyprincess 1)I am all for equal rights, but I do not find this society to be equal.  No, IMO, it has tipped the other way. 

    In divorce, why are children awarded to the mother 72 percent of the time?

    custodial mothers received 17% of their income compair to 7% of men

    women, on average, received 2/3 higher child support judgements than that of men

    Why is it that we graduate 72 percent of females from high school but only 65 percent of males?

    Men only make up 49% of the nations labor market (US Department of Labor) yet they have lost 72% of the jobs in the recession.

    We graduate 1.3 females for every male graduated from a four year college

    National Institute of Health established that government grant monies at all levels devoted to the study of health problems (physical and emotional) unique to women totaled $3.4 billion, while those grants specific to general health problems suffered by both male and female totaled only $340 million

    80% of children medicated for behavioral problems are boys

    Why are men still required by law to sign up for the draft, while women are not, implying IMO that men are disposable

    There is not one “Men’s Hospital” in this country (that I could find), but there are two women’s hospitals just in my home town.

    I have tried to locate a “Men’s Studies” department and any university and could not find one, I found discussions of needing them, but none so far.  There may be one somewhere that I am unaware of, but that compaired to the “Woman’s Studies” departments is infitesimal.

    2) Yes, my mother was a “feminist”, and yes, she is no longer.  Feminist is a political definition and political definitions change.  The Democratic party is not the same party of the Truman, of whom I have enjoyed many dinners with one of his speech writers.  It has been the topic of discussion many times.  You only have look through history to know that political definitions are constantly evolving.

    3)  Why is the quote so offensive?  (It is a book I picked up at a Women’s political leadership conference in MN in 2006) I find “owning” those qualities to be our strengths.  IMO the greatest women in history “owned” being a woman.

    Isabella, Elizabeth, Nephertiti, Victoria, Catherine, Cleopatra, Eleanore of Aquatine, & Theodora all owned and used being a woman to create vast empires.

    And, why are some women so offended that we have chosen to keep those qualities? And why are they offended that we chose to see those qualities as strengths?  I find no offense to aggressive women, I admire so many (don’t always agree with them, yet still admire them), but I have chosen a different path. 

    Post # 71
    Member
    1267 posts
    Bumble bee

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    @tksjewelry

    It’s offensive because you are subscribing attributes based on genatalia, that’s why.  I’m not nuturing.  Not at all – don’t want kids, don’t really like kids, don’t ‘take care of’ or baby my bf or anyone else.  I don’t even like holding babies.  So then how am I to ‘own’ an attriubute that you are saying I’m supposed to have because I have a vagina?  I’m just confused about that. 

    How are you lamenting not having equality but you are now saying that we are more loving, more charitable and more nurturing than the other gender?  So you mean that they are less loving, nurturing and charitable?  Why in the world would you think that?  HUMANS are complicated beings and biologically you can’t just lump them into categories like that – it doesn’t hold up.  Do you think that maybe so many women are ‘nurturing’ because their parents gave them dollys and baby dolls as children and that’s what they played with?  Could it be that constantly hammering into a woman’s head that being a wife and mother is a goal in life or an achievement to attain evenutally makes them believe that they need that?  I don’t see anyone structuring their sons life to find a woman, marry her and then just be a husband and father for the rest of his life and feel satisfied.  Maybe that’s why you think they aren’t as loving or nurturing?  I do not believe for one minute that women have separate characterisitcs than men – they are just trained by their parents and society to only express the one’s we tell them are acceptable according to their gender.  I own being a person – proud to be me.  I own all of my positive and negative characteristics but I don’t think for one minute that I have any of them because I happen to have breasts.

    The definition of feminist has NOT changed.  Those that don’t believe in equal rights for women and men have tried to warp it but if you say it’s changed then i guess they succeeded in that for you.  ALL of the stats you quoted are causes that ANY real feminist would work to improve – for women or men.  That’s what equality is and real feminists (women and men) fight just as hard for the rights of men as they do women.  Once again, if I told you right now that yellow is now the color blue are you just going to go along with me and accept it?  Of course not.  So why would you let others dictate what the definition: one who believes that women should be treated as EQUALS to men means?

    Post # 72
    Member
    265 posts
    Helper bee
    • Wedding: June 2011

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    @madcat I know right? “Be a feminist if you want, but you better not use that as an excuse not to take your husband’s name!” I feel like I’m in 1963.

    Post # 73
    Member
    90 posts
    Worker bee
    • Wedding: April 2011

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    @luckyprincess I’m starting to feel more like it’s 1863. It’s so depressing.

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    @luckyprincess I wish there was a Like button! Well said!

    Post # 74
    Member
    14492 posts
    Honey Beekeeper
    • Wedding: June 2011

    @luckyprincess – I really want to thank you for the frank discussion you have given me.  I really enjoy discussing these issues, especially with a true believer.  I respect your views.  This is honestly the first “real” discussion I have had on this subject in many years, especially without it breaking down.  Sorry it took me so long to answer, the last few days dealing with the FH’s son have been exhausting and my brain hurt at the end of the day.  It was nice to comment on pretty dresses and puppies for a few days.

    1) Yes, I do attribute attitudes to genitalia, why, scientific fact.  Studies at Cambridge and Harvard have proven that.  Now, not all people fall into all studies, and you may be that exception, but boys will gravitate to cars and girls to dolls.  This was a big thing in the 70’s to give opposite toys to kids as well as gender specific, and they gravitated to the gender specific in most cases.  And our brains are just wired different.  Equal does not always mean the same.  Like I said, you may be the exception, but there are billions who fit into the studies.

    2) Feminist themselves, along with historians, have noted the change in “feminism”.  The movement has been broken down in three waves.  First wave – 1700’s to 1920, Second Wave – 1940’s – 1990’s Third Wave – 1992 – Present 

    3) I don’t see alot of “feminist” marching on courthouses fighting for the rights of fathers or hiring lobbyists to get fathers an equal day in court, more medical research funding, or more male hospitals.  I have not in my time, ever seen any “feminist” group fight for a single male issue.  I spend alot of time talking to Senators, Congressmen, Lobby members, state and local politicians.  Men’s rights is not something that any of them are willing to take on because of the power of the feminist lobbies.  Ask your local Congressman to take a Male Rights Bill before Congress and you would be ignored.  I know, I have tried for years to fight for men’s equal rights.

    Post # 75
    Member
    45 posts
    Newbee
    • Wedding: July 2011

    I am a freight train conductor…. one of 2 woman out of 163 men….. I get called a feminist every day.  They think because I have breasts I must not have a brain. Ignorance must be bliss… I tell ya.

    The topic ‘A “feminist” discussion….’ is closed to new replies.

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