Post # 121
justanormalgal : “if you search the whole clip of that he literally said “MS 13-gang members they are animals”. I never rely on any media source for information.”
Thank you for pointing this out. I am pretty middle of the road politically and listen to/watch news from both sides to ensure I am able to form a balanced view. On either side, any time there is a shocking and dramatic quote my first thought is usually to look up the full context before I make a judgement.
Out of context language emotinally charges the platform for discussion very, very quickly. Because humans are emotional creatures, once that emotional connection is made to the language it becomes very difficult do discuss facts. I believe that is why a lot of pro-Trump people tend to lurk in the background. It isn’t “safe” to debate issues that people are passionately and morally attached to when the foundation for their charged emotions is skewed information. Even in this case- in which Trump was calling violent gang members animals- if someone is emotionally attached to the sinister implication of the out of context wording, the person trying to present the full context is at risk for being viewed as morally depleted, racist, etc. It takes a lot of time to build trust so that facts can be presented without shutting someone down when the facts run contrary to something they truly care about and there simply isn’t time or space to build that kind of trust with internet strangers. This is true for both sides of the political spectrum and even non-political internet discussions.
Here is an excerpt from a press briefing that describes the full context, which was posted at WhiteHouse.gov: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/press-briefing-press-secretary-sarah-sanders-acting-secretary-veterans-affairs-robert-wilkie-05172018/
“Q I just want to ask you, because so many people around the country have been talking about it in the last 24 hours, what did the President mean when he said some immigrants are not people, they’re “animals”?
SANDERS: The President was very clearly referring to MS-13 gang members who enter the country illegally and whose deportations are hamstrung by our laws. This is one of the most vicious and deadly gangs that operates by the motto of rape, control, and kill. If the media and liberals want to defend MS-13, they’re more than welcome to.
Frankly, I don’t think the term that the President used was strong enough. MS-13 has done heinous acts. It took an animal to stab a man a hundred times and decapitate him and rip his heart out. It took an animal to beat a woman — they were sex trafficking — with a bat 28 times, indenting part of her body. And it took an animal to kidnap, drug, and rape a 14-year-old Houston girl. Frankly, I think that the term “animal” doesn’t go far enough. And I think that the President should continue to use his platform and everything he can do under the law to stop these types of horrible, horrible, disgusting people.”
Post # 122
lobstersinlove : I appreciate the thorough response, but upon watching the clip myself 2 times I definitely interpreted it as a blanket statement to all illegal immigrants and not strictly MS-13. As I stated before, the quote from the sheriff about MS-13 seemed to be in passing and was not the focal point of the conversation. The focal point of the conversation (from my perspective) was illegal immigration as a whole.
Post # 123
Did I miss the part of Obama’s presidency where he openly supported MS 13?
Post # 124
justanormalgal : You mean a deterrent to stop *Mexicans*. The fact is that more illegal immigration stems from visa overstays than illegal border crossings. In fiscal 2017, for instance, the most recent year for which both metrics are available, the Border Patrol apprehended just over 310,000 undocumented border crossers. But more than 700,000 foreigners overstayed visas (out of a possible 52.7 million people issued temporary visas for tourism, business, education, etc.), according to the Homeland Security Department, and more than 85 percent of them were thought still in the United States at the year’s close.
Post # 125
lobstersinlove : The WH press secretary’s job is to put statements/situations in the context that will benefit the President, so I would not use Huckabee-Sander’s comments as the end all be all of what Trump meant. She is not an unbiased source by any means.
Post # 126
sweetiemermaid : Respectfully, I imagine that you watched a 5ish minute or less clip (you can correct me if I’m wrong, but when I did a quick youtube search now most of the videos were 2-3 minutes long). The point of my post was not so much to debate this specific topic as it was to demonstrate how out of context wording (or even short clips) can contribute to charged emotions, which can then lead to people on the other side of the spectrum feeling afraid to share their views. However, I’m inspired to watch the entire discussion later when I have time as I would assume that the full video will be more enlightening than a short clip.
Post # 127
I think sadly Trump getting voted in is just a very clear indication that racism is still very much alive in the US and we only THOUGHT it wasn’t as prevelent up until now. If anything him being elected reminds us of how much more work we need to still do against racism.
Second I think that there are A LOT of ignorant people, likely on both sides of the issue. To keep up with politics, to check facts, that is an exhausting and never ending ordeal. As an American you would have to be dedicated to the search for the facts, you would have to not just listen to news sources, you would have to really dig into the issues behind the statements, research the Middle East conflict, talk to forrest rangers about the impact policy has on national forrests etc. Most people no matter what political party don’t have the time or motivation to do the work to really make an intelligent decision and vote.
So what does that leave us with? Likely politicians know 99% of Americans are lazy about politics, so instead of focusing on addressing the intelligent well researched voters, they say whatever they can to encourage the lazy voters to vote the way they want them to. With half truths, scare tactics etc.
And for the kind of people who vote for Trump. There is a whole set of people who feel that life has somehow wronged them. My brother being one of those people. I won’t go into why he goes around with a chip on his shoulder as that would side track the discussion. Let’s just say he had a hard start to his life and didn’t find it easy to figure out what he wanted to do in his life. He works a job that leave him paycheck to paycheck, living in an area that is inexpensive, where he is surrounded by people with no higher education, all living paycheck to paycheck looking to blame anyone and anything but themselves for their troubles. THOSE are the people who jump for joy when people like Trump come along who promise tax cuts, and blame all the troubles of America on Immigrants. They love Trump because they don’t have to take accountability for their lives, they get to jump on the bandwagon of blaming other people. Edited to add – This is just one subset of people who vote for Trump. Not all people are driven in this way. My fiance for example is really into economics and is driven from that persepctive.
The last discussion my fiance and I had about Trump was about how Fox news was declaring that illegal immigrants cost the US X amount of millions of dollars a year. I looked at my fiance and said, so where is the other half of that information? He looked at me like I was crazy. I then pointed out that illegal immigrants do contribute financially to the US economy, specifically picking vegitables and fruit where no other people want to do that work. If they up and left our country over night our food industry would be in financial ruin. I pointed out to understand what immigrants really cost our country we would have to have both sides of the coin offered in the discussion. YOu can’t just throw out half the info. That is manipulative, and deceptive.
I am also sad that this thread was just closed. I was really enjoying hearing both sides of the conversation and I think for the most part each side has been respectful and insightful. Too bad this was closed for no reason.
Post # 128
missinthecity : Yes, I completely agree with your statement. As I mentioned in my most recent comment I’m inspired now to watch the full original video of the discussion so I can correct my assumption about the quote being taken out of context if necessary. I’m not here to defend Trump by any means as I think he is a gross person; the goal of my response was more to speak to the comments about Trump supporters who don’t speak up or give specifics about why they like him.
Post # 129
I am closing the thread. I appreciate all the responses and I feel many have said their fair share and everyone for the most part was civil. Don’t want it to digress from here.