(Closed) Catholic debate/opinions

posted 10 years ago in Catholic
Post # 47
Member
950 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: June 2010

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@kelly105 You said – “I know that some of you reading this may be 100% committed to every rule, and for that you should be referred to as a true Catholic.  I’m just an ordinary sinner that doesn’t understand everything, but I’m trying.”  I think we all are ordinary sinners trying hard to live a Christ-like life. 

I was raised Catholic, but had some very forward thinking parents who insisted that I NOT start Confirmation classes at 13 (to be Confirmed at 15) b/c they felt I was not adult enough to make the adult decision to confirm my belief as a Catholic.  Long story short, I came to my faith as a Catholic through the same way you did, being an ordinary sinner & trying to find my way & find a community to guide & wander with me…I found a LOT of my answers through the RCIA class.  It really is an open and welcoming place to learn more about the Catholic faith, to ask questions of those who are teachers of the faith and NOT of judgmental people…RCIA teachers & sponsors welcome questions like yours & gladly let you make your own decision about the Catholic Church.  Please look into one at a parish near you…I think they will help you find what you’re looking for, if what you’re looking for is a greater understanding of Catholicism, & they’ll let you freely decide whether it’s for you or not. 

Good Luck & may God be with you, always.

Post # 49
Member
350 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: January 1991

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@kelly105   I think the final straw was when I read that if I didn’t have a “Catholic” wedding, the church wouldn’t recognize my marriage and I could not have my children baptized in the church, etc. etc. 

First, you have to think of it from the Church’s perspective.  If you willingly go outside the Church to get married, you’re implying one of a few things: (1) you don’t believe in the teachings of the Bible and want to marry in a way that violates Divine Law (like divorcing and remarrying), (2) you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ and has the authority to bind and loose on Earth, (3) you don’t believe that marriage is a divine institution, or (4) you believe that your marriage is more important than God (of course, your situation could be something completely different, but that’s how it looks).

Now, the Church doesn’t ban you from Mass or punish you or anything, but you’re waiving some serious red flags above.  So the Church basically takes a step back and says “lets work through the above issues before we move forward.”  Baptizing a child is a wonderful thing but it comes with great responsibility for the parents and if there is a major issue (which is being signaled above), then the Church might determine that it is in the child’s best interest to not be baptized, then to go through RCIC later or RCIA as an adult before baptism.

 

Post # 50
Member
950 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: June 2010

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@kelly105 On a lighter note, hopefully that will get us both “brownie points” in heaven…*wink, wink*.  Please keep us updated with your search for your path to God.

Post # 51
Member
98 posts
Worker bee
  • Wedding: April 2011

I can so relate your post.  I was raised catholic and became unsatisfied because i disagree with a lot of the church’s teachings–gay marriage, the role of women, etc.  I spent a lot of years trying on different types of christianity–i spent about two years in a methodist church and another two in a non denominational church.  Ultimately, I felt like I was moving farther away from what I believed.  I found other christians’ use of the word “saved” odd and slightly upsetting and I don’t agree with a lot of what’s in the bible (we catholics are less bible-centric). I have no issue with these religions, they just weren’t for me.  I have recently come back to the catholic church because I had a bit of a revelation.  The “catholic faith” is not a constant thing.  It has been evolving for the past two thousand years, and it has evolved because the people within it disagreed.  So I stopped fretting about the things i disagreed with and decided to focus on everything else.  I’ve been doing a lot of reading and a lot of praying over the past three years, and have undergone a large spiritual transformation.  As a kid I never used to get anything out of mass, but now when I take the eucharist I feel this intense sense of peace and warmth.  I’ve been reading a lot about the saints and I find them so inspirational and wonderful.  I still disagree with a lot of things in the church, but i don’t think it ultimately matters.  I think the church is really just a vehicle for a relationship with God; it helps to have others around you to help you along your spiritual journey.  So, if another religion suits you better, go for it!  However, I don’t think you’re going to find a perfect religion because they are made up of people, who are innately flawed.  

So should you still be catholic? I have no idea.  I think if you want a relationship with God i would encourage you to pray on it, and maybe you’ll get some guidance.  I wish you the best 🙂

Post # 52
Member
1025 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: August 2010

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@Bright WingsI met my husband in JVC, actually. 🙂

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@Bright Wings I definitely know what you mean about not agreeing with everything and being OK about it. 

I know a lot of people really struggle with some teachings of the church. I do too. I have no problem with priests being married or women priests. There are examples of women leaders in the early church in the New Testament, and the celibacy rule was implemented because priests’ families were getting too expensive for the church to keep up with! Did you know that our first Pope, Peter was married? 

But I’m OK with the fact that the I disagree with the way the church is right now. The only religion I would agree 100% with is one I would make up myself, and I would probably be wrong. 

I’m not too vocal about my opinions about this, but I am honest. I’m not engaging in any protests or anything, and I definitely didn’t hire a married priest for my wedding! I do pray for our church, though. It is the body of Christ. 

One of the things I do really like about being Catholic is the freedom to doubt. I’ve always been taught that we grow by questioning.

Post # 53
Member
2867 posts
Sugar bee

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@kelly105  I obviously misread every post you’ve written.  It seemed to me you were disinterested or confused in what it means to be Catholic but I was wrong.  I should clarify, that I believe in gay marriage FOR THE STATE (but not religious marriages)–if that makes any sense?  But that’s not what this thread is about.  I agree, you can’t pick and choose what to believe out of the Bible.  However, we do know that the Law that Christ gave us means He fulfilled the previous (hopefully I said that correctly).  I agree, you don’t need to know every detail but I think you and well everyone for that matter (me included) would benefit from taking RCIA.  It’s so great to meet people. liaison and discuss matters of faith, morality, religion within the realms of the Catholic Church.  I really wasn’t trying to offend you and I’m very sorry that I have.  I just really love RCIA.  It was so valuable to me that I want to share it with everyone.

I also think that the Church would be better suited if priests were allowed to marry and there were more emphasis on women’s roles within the Church outside of having children (which is VERY important, I’m not trying to minimize that).  I just don’t think women should automatically be relegated to that.  I think the female deaconate needs to be reinstated and I love the idea of female priests.

I also wanted to add that I don’t believe in a degree of Catholicness.  Being Catholic enough has nothing to do with it, people’s relationships with God are between Him and them and so we as outsiders can’t see what’s happening.  However, we as a community can help each other just as Jedeve, CoffeeHound, and Ms. Pascua and so many others have done on this thread in one way or another.

Post # 54
Member
2867 posts
Sugar bee

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@Bright Wings  I definitely agree with the evolving statement.  Sure, there are things in the Catholic Church’s history that I’d rather not happen and disagree with; however, I found that there’s nothing compared to it. 

Post # 55
Member
350 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: January 1991

It’s important that if you disagree with the Church, you investigate why.

For example, I disagree with the fact that priests cannot marry and this used to cause me great concern.  However, after looking into it, I learned that my belief was actually no differerent than the Church’s.  There are married priests in the Roman Catholic Church and other particular churches in the Catholic Church (i.e. the non-Roman Catholic Churches) allow priests to marry.  The reason priests cannot marry is that they don’t want priests to marry.  They vote on it and set that rule, and it can change at any time if the priests change their mind.

The reason priests don’t want other priests to marry has a lot to do with what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 7 and the fact that they don’t want the priesthood to be a “9 to 5” type job, but rather a lifestyle.  You also have a hard time living a vow of poverty as a married man, especially with children.

Some argue that if priests could marry, then pedophilia among priests would decrease.  But studies have shown that pedophilia among U.S. priests (who are celebate) occurs at a lower rate than among U.S. male protestant minister who can marry (and both are below the rate of pedophilia among U.S. men in the general public).  Further, studies of those convicted of pedophilia show that the issue isn’t priests/ministers who become pedophilies, but rather pedophiles who become priests/ministers (basically as a way to have access to children and gain implicit trust).   

Post # 56
Member
11324 posts
Sugar Beekeeper
  • Wedding: February 2011

Could I suggest that you research Lutheranism? I am a Lutheran and I lovingly refer to it as catholic-lite :)Extremely simplified version is that Lutheranism was started by Martin Luther who had been a catholic priest but had a list of things that he thought the Catholic church had gotten wrong. So he nailed the list to the church door (and got excommunicated and fled the country) and started the Lutheran religion. From what you’ve said I feel like maybe you’d find it aligns with your beliefs. 

Post # 57
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2867 posts
Sugar bee

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@CoffeeHound  My Fiance’s sister who is Catholic has a fondness for Lutheranism and also calls it Catholic-Lite.  I wouldn’t be surprised if she converted since she finds that she disagrees with certain aspects of the Catholic Church including a recent scandle in the Southwest where a hospital admininstrator and religious sister arranged for an abortion in a extremely dangerous and high risk pregnancy of a patient, thus leading to excommunication.  She and I both agree that public excommunication is extremely harsh given the situation…it felt contradictory since the Catholic Church hasn’t publically excommunicated pedophiles within the Church or Bishops who wrongfully hid this sin.

 

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@CoffeeHound  Agreed.  Pedophiles are becoming priests, priests aren’t becoming pedophiles.  As an addition, I hate the implication that homosexuality equates pedophilia when it does not.  Many within the Catholic Church and even outside of it hold that very ignorant and damaging mentality.

Post # 58
Member
350 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: January 1991

The actual version of Lutheranism is that Luther demanded that he be made a bishop.  The clergy refused to do so because they do not like those that seek power (I’ve always been told that if you want to become a bishop, you will never become one).  Luther then sought a way to challenge the pope, so he created a list of complaints and nailed them to the church door.

Luther then claimed Sola Scriptura (that the Bible is the only source of religion – not the Church or the Tradition that supports the Church) and re-translated the Bible specifically changing phrases to take power away from the clergy and to give it to him (he admits this and says that it was acceptable because he was inspired by God to change the Bible and had as much of a right as Paul to do so).  He then found some wealthy backers to promote the wide-spread distribution of his Bible and started “his” church with the intent of revenge against the German clerics that refused to concecrate him.

Martin Luther Changed and/or Discounted 18 Books of the Bible

I know – it’s something that you’ve never heard, but it’s true.  History can be really enlightening sometimes.

 

 

Post # 59
Member
350 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: January 1991

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@beekiss2 The argument that homosexuality leads to pedophilia comes from the fact that there is a very high percentage of pedophiles that abuse male children vs. female children.  I don’t think you can immediately jump to a cause-effect relationship, but I’m also not well versed in that literature to see if such a relationship has been proven or disproven.

Post # 60
Member
2867 posts
Sugar bee

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@CoffeeHound  Pedophilia is not homosexuality.  Pedophiles pray on children, not gender.  I’m not saying some homosexuals can’t be pedophiles or pedophiles be homosexual.  However, as a group, homosexuals are not pedophiles.  I encourage you to research it from unbiased resources.

Post # 61
Member
11324 posts
Sugar Beekeeper
  • Wedding: February 2011

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@CoffeeHound i don’t know how valid that is or not, but I think you’ll find similar power struggles and perhaps less-than-holy intentions in just about every religion world-wide… i’d argue Catholic more than most. The bottom line is that the bible, in any form, is man-made. Each book of the new testament was written by men who lived at least 60 years after Christ’s death and never actually met him. The books of the bible were then, literally, voted on by a conference of men hundreds of years later to create what we call the Bible. If we are to believe that the Bible holds any validity we must then believe that there was some divine guidance to those writers and those voting the books into the Bible… and thus it doesn’t seem so far fetched that there would be divine guidance down the road in translation. I’m not saying these are my personal beliefs (which are, quite honestly, that the religion of Christ himself is forever lost to two thousand years of human corruption), but simply that if you believe in the Bible as holy then you must realize how it was created and take that into account when it was later translated. 

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