- 2 years ago
- Wedding: September 2021
If someone dislikes POC then I want to know as a POC. I don’t care how nice they are to my face because deep in their heart they don’t like people like me. That is my right to make the decision to share my life with them, to expose my family to them etc etc.
And I just want to point out that a person can be a new mum and a bigot. It can be both reason why she is declining to be bridesmaids. It would be a great reason for a bigot to hide behind so they didn’t have to be around “those” people.
From OP: “Over the past two years, Sally has slowly been coming out as gay. Let’s just say it’s been a surprise to no one. “
It would seem that Mary wouldn’t have been caught off guard by this development if it wasn’t a surprise to anyone, and if she was that bothered by it, wouldn’t she have likely ended the friendship earlier? It also appears, based on what OP said, that Sally was a bridesmaid for Mary. Again if she was that bothered, and Sally’s orientation wasn’t a surprise to anyone, why would she have included her in her wedding?
I’m not a religious person, but I don’t believe that being religious automatically makes you intolerant or hateful or a bigot. Unless OP comes back and has examples of Mary being a bigot, I can’t imagine why everyone would jump to that conclusion.
And why would any of them been friends with her all this time if they thought she felt that way? What does it say about them to knowingly pal around with someone that intolerant?
Okay, hi everyone! The wedding today is over and I’ve seen Beth, Sally, and Mary. Naturally as much as I didn’t want this to be the focus of the day, it did come up a ton. I talked to Mary directly and I very much so believe and affirm her decision that her and her husband are doing the right thing for their family. They have no idea what their life will look like in October with a four month old. They just cannot commit to anything. Mary feels like she took a very long time to think all of this through, knowing that her final decision would upset Sally, and now she feels like terms such as bigot and homophobic are being thrown in her face.
Sally and her fiance, Mariah, are determined that this is a homophobic issue. They both got very drunk (like could barely stand) and had to leave early. But before they left Sally’s fiance cornered Mary and asked her point blank what the issue was. Mary reiterated that this is all about the baby (I was standing about two feet away while this happened) and then her fiance asked her what she thinks about them having children. It was incredibly uncomfortable. Also a little earlier in the night Sally pulled other people aside, include Beth and Beth’s husband, and talked to them about it. Mary could observe this happening. It was just so sad. I told Mary she made the right decision and that I understand Sally’s emotions but that this is just so not the right way to handle it. Now I’m heading back home (to Europe) in a few days and will not see any of these friends again until October when the wedding in question is happening.
A PP noted that we are so close that we must be like sisters, and honestly that’s how it is. We love each other, we argue, we lived together, we have witnessed relationships and breakups, we’re each other bridesmaids, and now we’re becoming parents ourselves. It’s a weird space to navigate. I really appreciate all of the advice but I also think some of the responses kinda went down a rabbit hole. Maybe I should have waited to talk to Mary first but I just want a quick sounding board and the first couple of responses were so very helpful!
I truly feel sorry for Mary. Sally is a real bitch.
How long have Sally and Mariah been together?
With it being Sally’s first relationship since coming out, I actually find it kind of concerning that they are moving so fast in the relationship and now there are rifts growing between Sally and her close friends… I worry there may be some emotional abuse or manipulation going on.
It’s actually a very common issue in the LGBT+ community, where people who don’t have family support end up in really shitty situations because they are easily manipulated and preyed on.
How much time have you spent with Mariah? Do you get good vibes from her??
Honest to goodness, if I were Mary I don’t know that I would be friends with any of you anymore. A drunk individual getting in the face of a pregnant woman who doesn’t want to commit to something due to her impending birth? What a jackass. Also, anyone who wouldn’t stand up for me would be highly questionable as a continued “friend”. Unless Mary has ACTUALLY said she won’t be a bridesmaid due to it being a same sex wedding, ALL you have is speculation. No real solid ground to stand on whatsoever. I also find it highly questionable that Mary would have continued such a close relationship with Sally if that were her true reasoning. If someone feels that strongly about it from a religious standpoint, they more than likely would have distanced themselves from the friendship before this.
I also agree with PP that Sally should have just accepted her gracious “no”, rather than trying to talk her into an alternative. Also.. If Sally is so convinced this is the case, why would she want Mary to be in her wedding anyway? Mary is entitled to her beliefs and opinions, just as Sally is entitled to decide who she wants in her life. However, since none of this seems to be coming from Mary herself, I think this is quite judgmental premature of your friends. IF Mary ever states it is the case, proceed from there. Otherwise, let’s just assume she’s being truthful with feeling overwhelmed with impending motherhood.
HOWEVER, and it’s a BIG however, it is incredibly immature of Sally to keep harassing Mary about her reasoning. If she has the slightest glimmer of belief in her heart that Mary is simply using new parenthood as a cover for her underlying homophobia, she needs to cut the cord. I personally could not remain friends with someone who had strong, deep-rooted religious beliefs that opposed and actively attempts to suppress who I am as a person.
Friendships come and go, and I know you’re probably sad about things coming to a bitter end, but Sally has to do what is best for her life, and having a friend like Mary doesn’t seem to be in her best interest right now—especially since she’s been driven to the point of feeling triggered by any small semblance of rejection of her relationship. And Mary shouldn’t continue being friends with someone who interrogates her after every declined event (although don’t be mistaken, I’m 100% team-Sally here)
Dang! For such close friends, you guys have been really shitty to Mary. (Yes, implying someone is a lying homophobe and not genuinely concerned about having a complicated life 4 mos post partum is really shitty.) With friends like that, I’m glad Mary has a support system elsewhere.
ETA: I wrote this comment before reading the confrontation update. If I were Mary, I would stop speaking to Sally completely, and anyone else who watched that confrontation take place. That’s friendship ending behavior. Instead of Mary’s true colors coming through, Sally, Mariah and the onlookers put their shittiest selves on display.
It’s possible Sally heard her say homohobic things before she came out and that has led her believe Mary’s real reasons for declining are because she opposes their marriage. Tbh if one of my friends expressed homophobic views to me prior to me coming out it would always be in the back of my mind that deep down they didn’t approve of my relationship no matter how much they denied it now I was “out”.
At this point though I think for everyone’s sake it’s better to end the friendship because I don’t see how it’s healthy for Mary and Sally to continue in this situation. It looks like Sally is convinced Mary is lying, whether she is or not I don’t know, and her behaviour towards her as a result is completely inappropriate. If there’s any suspicion at all imo that your friend is against your relationship and harbours hateful or negative views about who you are as a person you should not continue that friendship. For both parties it’s better to just move on and accept the friendship is over imo.
if this friendship is as strong as OP makes it seem, it seems highly suspicious that Mary didn’t extend further explanation on why she can’t be a bridesmaid—rather, she doubled-down and refused to discuss it further. not that anyone is owed an explanation, but if I knew that my friend could REASONABLY expect that I didn’t want to be involved in the biggest, happiest day of her life because of my beliefs, I’d be falling all over myself trying to express how I couldn’t wait to be able to help as much as possible leading up to the event, and how excited I was for their union. Mary has simply clammed up, which has left Sally feeling judged and rejected by a close friend. yeah, I’m sure raising a 4-month-old is hard, but sally isn’t a parent and can’t quite understand. It is mary’s job as a friend to comfort and assure Sally during such a vulnerable time when I’m sure she’s feeling very isolated.
and it’s not like any of us are just speculating that Mary is a homophobe—OP straight-up admitted it. I hate how Sally went about handling things, and it wasn’t right, but it’s crazy how people are making Mary out to be completely blameless…
I don’t know guys I feel like a lot of the responses on here are from 1 of two persepctive, people who are gay or have close ties to the LGBTQ+ community, and people who are mothers.
Are Sallys actions acceptable? No. Are they understandable? In my opinion yes!
Let’s look at it this way, Sally has clearly been struggling with her sexual orientation for a long long time, probably since puberty. To only start slowly coming out a few years ago makes me think that she did not feel comfortable with who she was and was not confident that the people in her life (family and friends) would understand and support her. That is a super difficult thing to go through!
My brother is gay, when we were kids we were best friends, once he got to around grade 10 he became super withdrawn and wouldn’t spend time with us (his family) and seemed really down and depressed all the time. We are a very supportive family, no judgement, I have a gay uncle and gay aunt and no one in my family has said 1 bigotted judgemental thing, it’s never been a thing if you know what I mean. Even though that is the welcoming environment he grew up in, I learned later that my brother hated himself for being gay. He had a very hard time coming to terms with it and used to self harm and was scared of judgement. I can’t even imagine how difficult it must be for someone who grew up in a hateful environment where you KNOW that when you come out you will be shunned, judged, or hated.
I’m betting a lot of people on these boards can’t connect to those feelings and don’t realize how consuming it can be for YEARS. Wondering constantly if the people you love will still love you when they find out who you really are, wondering if it’s better to never come out and try and be happy without being true to yourself to save your current relationships, etc… That will totally take a toll on a person.
Also she is not a mother herself, so as we have discovered by the comments on this board, if you don’t personally connect with something, or haven’t experienced it yourself it can be difficult to understand where someone else is coming from.
I can definitely see why Sally is struggling, she knows Mary is super religious and even though OP has said Mary has expressed certain biggoted views to her in confidence, who knows what Sally has heard her say, or seen her behave in the face of “gay stuff” over the years. All of you have always been there for each others wedding days becasue you’re like sisters, it sounds like Sally will be the only one to not have one of her best friends there, that must hurt a bit. So she doesn’t get why a baby would hold back one of her “sisters” from attending when people do travel with babies and she hasn’t had one herself so she can’t possibly understand why she wouldn’t want to.
Now is Marys reason for not attending reasonable? Yes definitely, but does it make sense that Sally is hypersensitive and wouldn’t understand, also yes.
I think Sally cares about Mary and has probably always been afraid of Mary judging her for her sexuality and this was that confirming blow to the gut that her worst fears are true, even if that’s not true, and that would be heartbreaking for her.
Sally needs to work through her issues and insecuritiies if she wants to be able to listen to what Mary is saying and believe her. She needs to work harder at listening to understand what Mary is saying instead of making assumptions about what is happeneing. But I also think Mary should try to understand where Sally is coming from and why this is such an automatic assumption and be understanding. People have probably shunned Sally for being gay and it makes complete sense that if she feels someone (who has expressed certain views before) pull away that it could be happening again. It sounds like a fear response.
If they want to salvage their relationship both women need to talk to each other and try to understand where the other person is coming from. I don’t think Mary should hold the assumptions against Sally especially if they haven’t spoken about why Sally feels the way she does and Mary explains how she reall feels to her. Sally needs to understand where Mary is coming from and stop making assumptions about her and apologize for making them in the first place.