Georgia's new "heartbeat" bill? Thoughts?

posted 2 months ago in The Lounge
Post # 211
Member
4850 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: July 2018

I would be much more open to the ‘pro life’ argument if those same people weren’t against free and easily available contraception, good sex education delivered in schools, welfare benefits and paid parental leave. 

The irony in being against abortion but being against everything else to make family life easier is just too much for me.  Sure there are outliers but the majority of pro life voters follow this pattern.

And then there is the ‘but you can just give it up for adoption’ answer. What are these women supposed to do, quit their job and go into hiding for 9 months? The people who want to force her to carry the child to term and give it up for adoption are the very same people who have an absolute disdain for pregnant teens, single moms, low income families who are expecting another child. The judgment these women would have to endure within their families, their communities, at school or at work could be incredibly difficult to deal with, they don’t just get to have the baby and give it up for adoption and also go on with their normal lives, that isn’t an option. 

As a sort of related side note, I hate when people from the uk are always vocal about their outrage over different abortion bills in the us but I rarely see them caring about the fact that the whole of the uk doesn’t have access to abortion.  Abortion is illegal in NI, in 2016 a young woman was sentenced for having an illegal abortion and a mother is currently facing prosecution for buying abortion pills online on behalf of her daughter.  Only as a response to some mainstream media attention (finally) over cases like these did the rest of the uk change their stance on allowing NI women to use the NHS for a termination, before 2017 NI women had to travel to england to pay privately for a termination and also risk prosecution at home. 

Post # 212
Member
2703 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: July 2011

I 100% agree with you on NI. The UK does need to get its house in order on that front. zzar45 :  

Post # 213
Member
1136 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: August 2018

zzar45 :  And then there is the ‘but you can just give it up for adoption’ answer. What are these women supposed to do, quit their job and go into hiding for 9 months? 

This is something that never gets talked about and is a very important point. If I got pregnant, I couldn’t hide that at work. Even if I didn’t announce it, it would be obvious eventually and I’d have to field questions. My company throws expecting mothers baby showers at work so I’d either have to explain my situation or endure a baby shower knowing I wasn’t keeping the baby. I would have to arrange maternity leave with my company at the very least (which, by the way, would mean that I would have to take 2 weeks unpaid and then only make 60% of my salary for the remainder, which if a woman is giving away her baby due to financial strain I doubt she could afford to cut out 40% of her salary, that is if her company even offers that much). 

And then there’s the woman’s family and friends. I am almost certain that my pro-choice family would argue with me and try to get me to keep the baby rather than give it up for adoption. I can’t imagine how difficult and heart-breaking that situation would be. Particularly for a family that would want to keep the baby in an ideal world but can’t for whatever reason.

Also, who’s covering the pregnant woman’s medical bills? Check-ups, sonograms, vitamins, healthy food, the actual birth, etc?

Post # 214
Member
4850 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: July 2018

Twizbe :  Yeah, I mean you can still have an opinion on other countries of course but I think a lot of people post their outrage over America on social media and don’t really give a shit that part of the UK is also being left being.  It is something that didn’t really have news coverage on the mainland until 2/3 years ago. 

Post # 216
Member
1467 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: May 2019 - City, State

My immediate thought on reading about it:

“F this shit. F-ing f f f.”

I’m too mad to say anything of any insight. F.

 

Post # 217
Member
2339 posts
Buzzing bee

It bothers me that people feel the need to control women’s sexuality and reproductive rights as if we were nothing more than vessels to produce children for men and society.

 

Post # 218
Member
9227 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper
  • Wedding: August 2012

missviolet92 :  The issue with putting a limit at 12 weeks is that many women do not find out until the anatomy scan at 20 weeks that their baby may have birth defects, or be completely incompatible with life outside the womb.

Do you think women should be forced to carry that baby to term?

If you want to say “well it’s okay for medical reasons” – who makes that call? Is a doctor you’ve met a handful of times going to decide if you’re capable of caring for a disabled child mentally, physically, financially? Don’t you think that should be the parent’s choice?

Post # 219
Member
905 posts
Busy bee

Hey, are lawmakers planning to adopt these kids as soon as theyre born or…

Post # 220
Member
905 posts
Busy bee

Also, will it be illegal if men leave the pregnant woman or the children? Can we put the death sentence on men as well, or life in prison?

 

Or is it just women we are controlling here…

Post # 221
Member
4767 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: October 2017

ladama :  nope. They also don’t plan to expand any programs to help the mothers and babies, they actually try to reduce those programs.

These bills are happening because it is an attempt to force the Supreme Court to revisit roe v wade.

That’s why Alabama’s bill does not allow abortion for rape or incest, because they want it to be challenged and taken to the Supreme Court where the court will overturn roe v wade

That’s the hope that’s been expressed with Alabama’s bill.

Which is disgusting, it’s playing a game, knowing it will be challenged as unconstitutional, with the hope that roe v wade will be overturned

Post # 222
Member
2336 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: January 2012

rosadiaz :   kiram :  + 10000. I completely agree with you ladies.

We would love to think we have full bodily autonomy but that simply isn’t true. Especially when it involves medical practitioners causing death to another being. For e.g., one siamese twin cannot go and demand doctors remove the other for their own convenience.

I read someone argue degrees of personhood. I’m not sure how that works. When did I become a person? That’s is a completely philosophical question. One that the law answers in many different ways. I’m also very wary when we as a society try to justify bestowing degrees of personhood on any being. At some point in time I would have been considered 3/4 of a person. People went around justifying these atrocities because it was the law.

I believe it’s my moral responsibility to vote against these laws, although abortion is not legal in my country.  I truly think if there ever is scientific enlightenment, future generation would judge us for not erring on the side of human sanctity.  

Post # 223
Member
4767 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: October 2017

picturemeurs :  personhood for an unborn baby is a very dangerous and slippery slope. The best example I have seen is women who are pregnant and in jail. The unborn baby under personhood is being innocently put in jail. What do you do? Let the mother out until the baby is born? Deliver the baby as soon as possible?

Will we need to investigate all miscarriages as accidental deaths? Will we need lawyers to represent unborn babies in court cases?

I absolutely understand what you are saying, and I can see the argument for the unborn baby being a separate human being.

But the complexities and problems that come with laws allowing personhood are complex and actually pretty scary.

And after the baby is born, the parents decide what is best for their kids as long as they are not neglected or abused. So the unborn baby will have more autonomy than actual living, breathing kids.

Personhood is a very, very dangerous idea and it’s one that neglects the already living, breathing mother

Post # 224
Member
4767 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: October 2017

And when does personhood start? At conception? Ivf has been mentioned in some of these threads, are unused embryos being murdered if personhood starts at conception?

Does personhood start at the point of viability? There are strict abortion laws against aborting after the point of viability. so how would an abortion ban based on personhood change that when there are already laws that ban those abortions unless there are extreme circumstances, such as danger to the mother? Why would it even be needed if personhood would start at the point of viability, currently 24 weeks?

Post # 225
Member
27 posts
Newbee

While I think that it is natural as a society to debate things such as when life or personhood begin, centering policy on such issues is far less productive, for reasons that others here such as Sansa85 have mentioned and because large swaths of society will probably always disagree philosophically with one another on such issues. I propose instead that policy efforts focus on more common ground that those who are focused on protection of the unborn and those who are focused on the well-being of women can come together on, agree on, and work on. I posted the following on another thread here:

I think that the only really productive way as a society to deal with this issue is to focus on the DUAL welfare of children and women.

Given that sexuality is one of the most fundamental human drives as well as a crucial component of healthy and vital intimate partnerships, this means education that allows boys and girls to have a solid grasp of how their bodies work, good knowledge of contraception (including accurate info on reliability and risks) that encompasses both pregnancy and STD risk, wide availability of safe contraception to everyone regardless of socioeconomic status, and meaningful legal investigation, prosecution, and sentencing for rape, all of which will reduce in a major way the number of women having to make such terrible decisions in the first place.

It means an equal level of concern for children’s development throughout their time in the womb by provision of adequate medical care for all pregnant women, regardless of socioeconomic status.

It means an equal level of concern for children after they’re born by provision of medical care, education, and a safe, nurturing place to grow up for each and every one of them, regardless of socioeconomic status. (After all, a child is in no way responsible for the socioeconomic status of his or her parents.) It also means family-friendly policies in the workplace that allow parents to actually bond with and take care of their children. It means creating a foster care system and an approach to adoption that actually works in the best interests of children. Then women who are open to carrying a child to term, but feel that they don’t have the financial, logistical, or other means to adequately parent can either attain the means or lovingly give the child over for adoption without such fear of what the child’s future will look like.

THAT is how a society severely reduces the rates of abortion, and there is real-world data to support it.

Now, what I’m proposing will of course be rejected by those with more oppressive agendas – those who actively want to reduce women’s ability to participate in society in education, career goals, economic stability, and political power, those who wish to use governmental power to control and punish women for having sex (which we all surely must understand is unconstitutional if motivated by religion and is misogynistic), and those who really don’t personally care all that much about abortion in particular but seek to use it (and therefore real women’s and children’s lives) as issues to manipulate the voting public in their personal pursuit of political power. I honestly believe, however, that if those of us who are honestly and more purely motivated out of respect for life – of children in or out of the womb and of women – would resist seeing each other as enemies but instead band together, we can be the force needed to advance the welfare of humanity AND overcome those who seek to oppress.

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