(Closed) Ground Zero Mosque? just curious

posted 10 years ago in Legal
Post # 108
Member
601 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: September 2010 - Heinz Chapel Ceremony, Museum Reception

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@evalague: Nobody is denying that poster her rights. The photo hasn’t been pulled, her account is still active, and the thread is still active. People are just expressing their opinions.

Post # 109
Member
7081 posts
Busy Beekeeper
  • Wedding: July 2009

Hi Hive,

I may have made a mistake.  We received a number of flags regarding the picture posted by tks.  When I read through the thread and clicked on the photo, I had an awful visceral reaction and deleted the photo.  The moderation team as a whole had decided to leave the picture as a clickable attachment.  I can’t seem to get the picture back (nor do I actually have the desire to), but I should have just left it as is.

I was flying to JFK that morning and had a friend working trauma surg at the main hospital receiving 9/11 victims, so I acknowledge that my reaction was a gut level one and I should have checked in with the mod team first.  Sorry to add to the controversy!

Post # 110
Member
5822 posts
Bee Keeper

No worries Mrs DG!  I’m sure that next time perhaps our users will think twice about what they are posting and how people will react to what they are posting.  And in actuality that photo violated the site Terms of Use.  Specifically:

In addition to the foregoing, you will not post on the Services, transmit to other users, communicate any content (or links thereto), or otherwise engage in any activity on the Site or through the Services, that:

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Please see the Terms of Use for reference.

Post # 111
Member
2867 posts
Sugar bee

So I know this is a few days old but I hope it gives some perspective to everyone.  First off, I like Ron Paul, sometimes I disagree with him but this time I wholeheartedly agree.  Currently his son, Rand Paul, is running for reelection as a republican in KY and has said that the money being spent to build the community center should be given to the survivor’s fund, his father vehemently disagrees.  Also for clarification, it’s not a mosque but Ron Paul and everyone else refers to it as that.  Here’s his quote:

“Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars [referring to our occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan].

The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.”

 

____________________________________________________________
I hope there’s some perspective gained from this.

 

Post # 112
Member
1029 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: May 2011

Just to throw in an off-topic point and correction…Jews most certainly do NOT believe Jesus was a prophet (nor the messiah as someone else correctly said). He was just a guy and is not mentioned anywhere in our texts or belief system. Just FYI. 🙂

(and I have no issue with the cultural center at all)

Post # 113
Member
5496 posts
Bee Keeper
  • Wedding: April 2010

@BeeKiss Thanks for posting that above. 

I have no problem with a Muslim cultural center being built a few blocks away. It sickens me that so many in the U.S. are becoming so hateful toward ALL Muslims (even though over 99% of them are just like you and me) and it scares me. I’m sure the terrorists couldn’t be happier.

I just read an article about a church in FL that is going to burn the koran on 9/11/10. I don’t even have words to describe how I feel about that. It’s sick, I know that.

Post # 114
Member
271 posts
Helper bee

I think they have a right to build it there.  They should build it where they want and everyone else needs to build a bridge and get over it. 

Post # 116
Member
593 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: May 2010

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@MissDonnaAnne: Thanks for the link. Interesting to hear about it from someone who personally knows the Imam behind the Islamic center and his wife.

Post # 117
Member
2007 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: September 2009

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@MissDonnaAnne:  That is interesting!  Thanks for posting it. 

And I’m very late to the game but I wanted to thank you bees for restoring my faith in humanity.  This is the first civilized conversation I’ve seen about the Not-Quite-A-Mosque located Not-Quite-At-Ground-Zero!  Cheers!  🙂

Post # 118
Member
120 posts
Blushing bee
  • Wedding: April 2010

I live and work in NYC. In fact, I got married in Battery Park – the place that some on this thread have called “very depressing.”Yes, I do walk by Ground Zero regularly, and it always stirs up strong emotions about tragedy, human hatred, and war. But I also see New Yorkers going to work every day, filled with the bustling energy of the place, and the overwhelming spirit of moving forward. Looking out from Battery Park, I also see the Lady of Liberty in all her glory, her torch held high. I got married there not because I was unaware of a tragedy that continues to affect many, but because we simply could not allow hatred and fear to ever quench the joy of our community. 

We simply cannot allow a tragedy, no matter how horrid, to affect the understanding and friendship among New Yorkers, who come from all religions and all walks of life. The people who will worship in this cultural center aren’t those who devised terrorist attacks. They are our neighbors, our friends, our brothers, our sisters, our community, and our family. They are honest New Yorkers who go to work every day to rebuild our community. They, too, experienced 9/11 in all the horror that we all did. We owe it to them, and to ourselves, to lessen the burden of doubt and fear in us all.

And let’s not forget that 9/11 didn’t just happen to NYC. There are times when we are small communities, and there are times when we must stand as a nation. And as a nation, we must stand up for our constitution, and for the freedom it gave all of us. I hold the utmost respect for the First Amendment. I am appalled that people could take it ever so lightly so as to dismiss the rights of those they disagree with. The First Amendment isn’t New York City traffic law – it’s the principle in which this country was founded. 

And so I look forward to see a community center built, and more conversations open, and a deeper understanding within our community. Because as a New Yorker, there is nothing I love more than the diversity and energy of New York – and the friendship we extend to each other. 

 

Post # 119
Member
5496 posts
Bee Keeper
  • Wedding: April 2010

@RedCactus  Yes!! Thank you so much for your thoughts. I totally agree and I’m so glad you touched on the Constitution topic. I was also very appalled at the previous poster who wanted to ammend the Constitution over this… You are right. It’s the principle in which this country was founded!!! You are right. If people were actually able to ammend the Consitution for political differences, where would that lead us? That would be a complete and utter diaster!! Makes me sad to think about that.

Post # 120
Member
570 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: January 2009

Violet Violet nailed it-  “We can not and should not connect a group of radicals to an entire religion”. 

Timothy McVeigh was Catholic, so should there never be a Catholic community center built near the APM Federal Building site in Oklahoma City?  I somewhat think that it would not be as big of an issue. 

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