Post # 46
mrsptobe2017 : I actually do agree with you on the abortion part. I am pro choice. Government shouldnt be telling us what to do with our bodies. Not just women but anyone.
BUT you just highlighted again why it’s so hard to have political discussions. I stated I am not for open borders and you hit me with the “kids in cages and people coming from violence” and even told me that i have no empathy.
Thank you for proving my point about having political discussions in today’s America. I disagree that people deserve to get insulted for their opinions. Insulting people is not going to improve our country..its just separating us more and more.
Post # 47
- Wedding: November 2019 - City, State
dabribri23 : Bingo. It’s not ok to demonize people and put terrible words in their mouths the way it was just done to you. This is 100% the problem today. You just got hit with “I don’t agree with/don’t understand your opinion, so I’ll judge you and assume you’re fine with a bunch of terrible, hyperbolized things.” It’s a backhanded way to say “you’re a wretched person” and it’s a ridiculous assumption to make of people. I appreciate your perspective, Bee.
Post # 48
dabribri23 : Okay, I understand you’re pro-choice, so it might be hard for you to get on board with this analogy, but human rights are to liberal progressives what the rights of a fetus are to die-hard pro-lifers (this is a comparisson I do not enjoy making). That is why this argument is so devisive and often people can’t just “agree to disagree”. The appreciation of human rights (as in the rights of ALL humans) is central to our belief structure, and it is extremely difficult for us to see a person who condones the restriction of those rights through action or inaction as a truly good person. Therefore, it is hard for us to give them our respect, and respect, at least to me, is central to friendship. I might be able to be casual acquaintances with a conservative, but I would never be able to forge a deep friendship, or to continue a deep friendship, with them because the respect just wouldn’t be there.
Post # 49
James Baldwin said it best for me, “We can agree to disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my right to exist.”
Post # 51
“To me, these issues have become more than abstract political ideas that can be glossed over in polite company. People are experiencing very real consequences to dangerous policies, and so much more is still at risk.” <– THIS.
And what is even “abortion after birth”? No pro-choice feminist advocates for aborting a newborn baby because that’s not what abortion is, that’s murder. Conservatives love to twist words to move the goal post of the debate.
There are 7 billion people on the planet, I don’t need a dummy friend.
Post # 52
- Wedding: November 2019 - City, State
backwardsandinheels : “The appreciation of human rights (as in the rights of ALL humans) is central to our belief structure, and it is extremely difficult for us to see a person who condones the restriction of those rights through action or inaction as a truly good person.”
Then you must understand that when pro-lifers talk about this, they believe strongly that “the rights of ALL humans” includes the unborn humans. It is central to their belief structure. It is extremely difficult for them to see people who they perceive as evil to children as truly good people. They literally think babies are being murdered, which is why it’s such a big deal to them. But if someone came at you with “then you obviously just hate children and have no empathy!” they would be wrong to do that to you. It’s a baseless insult and a harmful judgement no matter what your beliefs are or what side you’re on. You must be able to see someone else’s perspective and respect it. That IS EMPATHY. So if you can’t do it, then you’re the one lacking empathy.
ETA: I’m not trying to say you don’t have empathy, I’m just speaking purely off of the literal definition of empathy. Didn’t want it to get misconstrued. Also this is an EXAMPLE, so if anyone is looking to crucify me for this, then calm down.
Post # 53
backwardsandinheels : I get it, am totally on board with abortion however there are those that believe just as strongly as us on the other side. We think our rights are being removed but they believe fetuses are people and *their* “rights (to life)” are being removed/circumvented. That these “babies” are being killed blah blah blah. We think *they’re* wrong. They think *we’re* wrong…
Being insulting, calling names (not saying you do this!) does absolutely nothing but create hate, animosity, give them a reason to entrench their opinions deeper… By all means, don’t engage if someones opinion is anathema to you but realize they likely have a similar opinion of yours …
Post # 54
It would not bother me to have differing views. I have very different political views from a lot of my friends and we just don’t talk about it. I know there are a few that we can discuss and not hate each other so I keep the conversation limited to those people.
I’m a Christian and I’m also friends with atheists. I know they don’t agree with me but we would never let that stop us from having a friendship.
Post # 55
Honestly, I think it’s such a privilege to be able to say that politics is just a difference of opinion and people should look past it. Pleading that we all should get along and why can’t we accept things as just a difference of opinion is a privilege many don’t have.
You’re not the one being threatened, you’re not the one whose rights are being taken away. If you were faced with the prospect of being deported, forced out of your job, not being allowed to marry the person you love etc. then maybe you could understand why to some people politics is not just a mere difference of opinion. Political opinions and beliefs can be extremely dangerous, just look into the rise of Hitler and the Nazis as an extreme example and you will understand why.
Post # 56
hickoryhills : Something I’ve learned the hard way over the past three years is that empathy has its limits. I respect the right of pro-lifers to believe that I am a horrible person, baby-killer, murderer, etc. for being pro-choice, to the extent that their beliefs do not influence my ability to choose, and I make an effort to intellectually undertsand their arguments, despite not agreeing with them. But I am not obligated to attempt to FEEL as they do. It’s been my experience that that perceived obligation on the part of the oppressed to acknowledge the feelings of their oppressors is what causes real and lasting pain, more so than an exchange of insults.
mrstodd2bee : I do see how that works. But whether anti-choice advocates object to abortion for religious or “humane” reasons, the reality is that they are supporting a political process that curtails a woman’s jurisdiction over her own body. On the flip side, as a pro-choice advocate I am not seeking to limit anyone’s options—no one should be able to force someone to HAVE an abortion either. The argument for the independent rights of a fetus is not legal or scientific in nature, it is religious, philosophical and emotional, and therefore has no place in federal or state policy (we liberals are also sticklers for the separation of church and state, though, and that’s a whole other kettle of fish….). I agree with you, throwing insults around is pointless, which is why I generally don’t try to argue the validity or lack thereof of anyone’s personal beliefs. In the end, they believe what they believe and it doesn’t usually touch me or the people I love. However, when the small-minded opinions (from my perspective) of those people turns into a movement, and that movement turns into a political party, and that party gains power in Washington and begins to make policy, I absolutely reserve the right to criticize publically, to object, and to attack, because those things affect ME personally, as well as countless others.
Post # 57
hickoryhills : I attended a Jesuit university and always had respect for those who were opposed to abortion because of a deeply held belief in the sanctity of human life. For them, that belief means that they believe in charitable giving for the poor, in early childhood education and support for young mothers, and in the dignity of all humans. They also believed, just as strongly, that the death penalty is an abomination and that only God should pass judgment by taking a life. On the whole, the anti-abortion crowd in the United States – particularly politicians – does not think this way and it is their hypocrisy that makes their views contemptable.
Post # 58
Whether you are conservative or liberal or somewhere inbetween why is it so hard to be friends with someone who has different political beliefs than you? You just know ok politics is something we cant discuss I mean there are literally thousands of topics that can be discussed besides politics such as your job, sports, tv, the weather, things going on in your everyday life, your families and so on and so forth. My own parentd are conservatives and I’m definitely liberal but i am still super close to my parents but we just know to stay away from political conversation since it isn’t going to get us anywhere.
Post # 59
soexcited123 : As others have already explained, it is a position of privilege to be able to “agree to disagree.” For many people, political opinions affect their most basic human rights. Think about it this way: If you were a POC and you knew people who were white supremacists, would you feel threatened? Many gay and lesbian people are looking at politics which would restrict their right to serve in the military, marry their partner, adopt a child, or even keep their job. Trans people face laws that would restrict their right to use a bathroom, let alone all the rest. Women are now facing legislation that puts their right to even prevent pregnancy at risk.
A lot of people view these things as basic human rights, and that’s not even wading into the abortion debate. It is truly a privilege to be able to look past beliefs which threaten some people’s very right to exist.
Post # 60
bookishbee90 : Ignoring the political positions for a moment, it seems very off that your friend should actively scoff at what you say, and do so in front of her husband and your fiance. Even if this was a discussion about weddings and flowers then this behaviour wouldn’t be acceptable. I think that you need to have a discussion with her about how this is neither the mark of a friend or the mark of a Christian.
It might be worth pointing out (if you’re feeling brave or foolhardy) that Jesus wasn’t a capitalist and that he suggested to the rich young man that he gave all his money to the poor and follow him. It might also be worth saying that if she wants to take a pro-life position then she needs to consider the born as well as the unborn. So if all life is sacred then you can’t allow people to die of hunger just so that Western countries (including America and Britain) keep their profits up. Nor can countries allow children to be hurt or injured or starved on their borders.
I personally don’t like the term “toxic masculinity”. It implies that men who insult women and who rape are behaving in a masculine (although toxic) way. I think that it is insulting to men in general. I wish that we had another term for it, one that implied that rapists are not real men. Perhaps your friend could come up with a new term that would be more fitting.