Post # 46
teamroro : Thank you. This is the most spot-on response I have received. Apparently, you and I and our partners are the exact same people haha. I’m definitely going to take your advice to heart and try the soften the edges a bit on the whole “I don’t need you thing.” Like you said, it is true that I don’t need him financially and life will go on emotionally too. But that certainly isn’t my preference so perhaps I should start acting like it.
Post # 47
najadai : Have you read The Power of Vulnerability by Brene Brown? She has great insights on how to be vulnerable and why it’s important in any area of life.
Post # 48
Have you read The Power of Vulnerability by Brene Brown? She has great insights on how to be vulnerable and why it’s important in any area of life.
browneyedgirl24 : I have not, but vulnerability is something I have been trying to work on for the last several years. Vulnerability is the antithesis of how I was raised in a single mother household where “feelings” (especially over men) was seen as a serious weakness. Strength is the only virtue haha. So I struggle with this balancing act of nature vs. nuture when it comes to my behavior in relationships.
Post # 49
I believe you that he’s amazing. But does he realize how amazing you are? Because if he did, I can’t help but think that he would be jumping at the chance to marry you.
Post # 50
browneyedgirl24 : Just tried to order it on Amazon and they only seem to have the audio CD.
Post # 51
Najadai, The Power of Vulnerability is actually a recording of a weekend talk that Brene Brown gave, so it is only available in audio format. I believe you get your first audiobook for free if you create an audible membership – so maybe try that route? If you would rather read a book, the talk she gave (and hence The Power of Vulnerability’s content) is based on her previously published book “Daring Greatly.” However, I’ve listened to the talk (audible) and read the book, and the talk is FARRR more compelling. That format is much better for getting across the message. If you’d like to listen to a snippet: https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability I also come from a background that was anti-vulnerability. And now that I’ve read these books and grown myself in this area, it is so easy to look back on past relationships and see the huge wall that was invisible to me before and prevented my relationships from getting very deep. There are definitely great returns to be had from growing yourself in this area. The audible book even helped Fiance a great deal!
Post # 52
Girl as a fellow 31-year-old attorney, real talk. How are you putting up from him the same kind of bullshit that presumably you would not be putting up with in your job from opposing counsel or even oftentimes clients, if you were to get anywhere with your cases? Whether you do litigational or transactional work, this kind of approach is not going to get anything done.
I don’t know why people are so allergic to the word “ultimatum.” “It’s not a threat, it’s a promise” is how we push things forward. It just means you are willing to back up what you say you want with actions and if you say you’re going to do something you do it. If you do not give CLEAR DEADLINES and then hold to them, shit will simply not get done. Creating expectations and then carrying them out is not giving an ultimatum.
If you are not willing to walk away from a deal no matter what, then you have no power. You’re not negotiating at that point, you’re just begging. In that case, your case is dead in the water and you have lost. If my client is rejecting a settlement offer, I make sure that that means they are willing to take the risk of going to trial and getting nothing. If they are not willing to take that risk, sure I can TRY bluffing/begging for more, but I don’t have much leverage if they decide to call me to the mat and hold my feet to the fire.
Also I know it’s hard when it’s something close and dear to your heart, versus something at work that you are detached from. But part of our jobs as attorneys is also to read past the evasiveness in other people’s words and get at the true heart of the matter. He is saying to you with his actions that he’s not going to marry you by the time that you are hoping for and honestly, probably not ever, since his words sound like him trying to pave the way for never doing it. He’s banking on “[you] said [you] would stop but it’s been really hard so [you]’ve started up again.” so he can say “oh but I want this to be a big honking surprise and now you’ve ruined it. You’re always pressuring me!” Sigh. It’s not even original.
Post # 53
najadai : You could start with her TED talk and see if it resonates with you:
It really did for me as well — I was also raised by a single mom and learned to be very independent and strong, and this author really helped me see how letting people know we need them and being real about our anxieties and weaknesses is so fundamental to healthy reciprocal relationships.
ETA: Whoops, looks like duchessgummybuns beat me to it! I must have meant Daring Greatly, which I read a few years ago and really enjoyed.
Post # 54
camenae : “I don’t know why people are so allergic to the word “ultimatum.” “It’s not a threat, it’s a promise” is how we push things forward. It just means you are willing to back up what you say you want with actions and if you say you’re going to do something you do it. “
YES….this is exactly how I feel about “ultimatums” and why I think they can be perfectly appropriate in certain circumstances. When Darling Husband and I were dating, he got a job offer in another city. It was an awesome opportunity for him and there was no questioning that he should take it. He asked me to move with him to the new city. I told him I’d love to do that, but wasn’t going to uproot my life, quit my own job, and move across the country unless we were engaged. I guess that was an ultimatum, but I’m glad I gave it because I’m not sure how else I could have made my intentions clear. Darling Husband took a few weeks to think about it and then decided to propose.
So, I guess you could say I bullied him into proposing with an ultimatum. But you could also say that I was completely honest with Darling Husband about my feelings and intentions. I gave him relevant information and he was free to do what he wanted with it.
Post # 55
You can over-analyze this up the wazoo. I get it, I’m also an attorney, and it helps to find logical reasons for why or why not as to a person’s actions. But the simple point is that if he wants to marry you, he will do it.
I told my Darling Husband at the time that I wanted to be engaged by the end of the summer because we were going to move in together that September. However, he was busy interviewing and transitioning to a new job around this time, so it didn’t happen. It was understandable, so I told him new timeline, I’d like to be engaged by the end of the year. He proposed in November. It’s been like 2.5 yrs now since we’ve been married and he jokes sometimes that I made him. No, he’s an adult who made his own decision to propose, just like how he could have decided that he didn’t want to get married to me. He never made any excuses or asked for more time. I know it’s not always as cut and dry, but it isn’t rocket science, even if a person isn’t 100% sure, and your Boyfriend or Best Friend is clearly showing you that he isn’t sure enough to marry you.
You’d have to be engaged pretty soon to be having a Fall 2018 wedding. I’d give your Boyfriend or Best Friend a new timeline for proposing, not getting married, and be prepared to walk if he doesn’t follow through. I don’t think that I said outright that I would leave, but I think my Darling Husband knew me well enough to know that I wouldn’t stick around too long, because I didn’t want to waste my time on a relationship that wasn’t going to lead to marriage.
Post # 56
camenae : tiffanybruiser : EXACTLY.
Post # 57
Do what you feel is the best for you. We can tell you our opinion all day long, fact is you know him better then anyone here. I will say have a heart to heart with him and ask him straight out.
“Is marriage in the cards for us” ask when get a definitely timeline. I say this because it has been 2 years and even though that is some time it’s not a very long period of time.
If after that he still doesn’t budge. Walk away. He will only keep stringing you along at tgat point. Good luck!
Post # 58
- Wedding: October 2019 - Chateau Lake Louise
Huge props to browneyedgirl24 : for suggesting this.
This talk was a revelation. I had spent my whole life thinking that being in control of my emotions was not only desirable, but a badge of honor. That I was “squishy inside” was something to hide and overcome.
When this successful woman stepped forward to speak her truth, it’s like she was articulating all the thoughts that had been echoing in my head for years.
Somehow, hearing her say these things gave me permission to access a part of myself that had always been there, but had been muzzled for most of my life. I started to see vulnerability as an asset rather than a liability. It allowed me to become a better communicator, enhance the intimacy of my close relationships, and to be more gentle with myself as well. The being able to yield is in fact a huge sign of strength.
Watch the original TED talk. Mull it over. Watch it again. I promise, it will be worth it.
Post # 59
One thing I always find helpful when I feel like I’m being “crazy” or just can’t get a good read on things is to pretend I’m talking to one of my friends about this issue. When I take a step back and look at our relationship as an outsider, I have no doubt that he is committed to me, our relationship, our family, and that he does plan to propose (eventually). I’ve never been happier and felt more secure with anyone else. For that reason, I’m just not at a place where I’m ready and willing to break up our family over it.
My logical side says, “its ‘only’ been two years (the same thing he says), he treats you great and shows you that you’re a priority in his life. Stop being a stupid control freak and chill out. Does it really make a difference if he proposes in 2 months (my timetable) or 6-9 months (his timetable)?” Should I really throw away everything over a 4-7 month difference when we all know that time will fly by?
But then, of course, there’s just my nagging relationship history and insecurities that says “girl, he’s full of shit just like the rest of them – just end it before he wastes your time too. Let’s just nip the pain in the bud and save our fertility.”
In reality, his “excuses” are probably just a reaction to my controlling nature and push back on the relationship dynamic you all have picked up on where I can’t be vulnerable or lose control. Maybe he really just wants this one thing to himself to feel like “the man” where I’m not involved in every detail of it. (I think I might have just had my ah-ha moment haha – thanks ladies).
Post # 60
najadai : Given your update and unwillingness to leave at this point or give an ultimatum, I would follow teamroro :’s advice. Talk to him one more time in the near future about getting engaged, but do it in a direct, raw, honest way: “approach the subject like you never have before. Write him a letter. Be as vulnerable as you can possibly be. Don’t try to provoke any particular response, but express the anxiety and fear in your heart. Let him know you need to feel needed, too.”
And then I would drop it completely until 6-9 months or whatever timeline he gave you. If he hasn’t proposed by then……it would defiinitely be time to walk or give an ultimatum imo.