Post # 151
LilliV : We were not asked what we thought about the rights of rich people/hedgefunders/scammers etc having kids? If you want that debate, start your own thread about it.
And yeah, I would judge someone that keeps having children when they know don’t have the funds for them, and scamming the system and bragging about it! Other people who do need the funding such as my loved ones don’t get what they need when it becomes a mass problem. Inlcuding that she has kids with mulitiple men was to indicate that she doesn’t stop for anything to get pregnant to get a pay check. Not just from welfare but private companies. It is a serious problem in my community. Not just some personal opinion I pulled out of my ass.
They were raised exactly the same. Their mother works at the same company too. -.-
Post # 152
konablend : Well, not to speak for LilliV, but in any debate, you always start off by examining the premise of the debate. In this case, some of us happen to believe it’s a flawed premise.
Post # 153
konablend : I think pp is referring to “same house different home”. You can be raised by the same parents and still come out with different experiences and different memories, even if you were treated equally
Post # 154
Hmm. This is actually something I have complained about to my hubby recently because of a friend on facebook. She is pregnant and always talks about the large family she wants, she wants Six kids. Currently has two and is pregnant with her third. She doesn’t have a job and has jumped from boyfriend to boyfriend. Complains about how she can’t afford them and how expensive they are but she still wants more.
Do I think it’s smart? No. Is it her right to have more kids? Yes, absolutely.
What if I was in that position? What if I wanted to be a mother and have children more then anything in this world, but someone else told me I couldn’t even though I knew I would be a great mom. I would give then a big FU and do what I want anyway.
I do think that people should take the cost of children into account when planning to have a child. There are sacrifices that have to be made and not everyone is willing to do that. I also don’t think that welfare should be your financial option of making it work… I understand accidents happen and things that we don’t plan for, like losing a job, or falling on hard times but if you are already on welfare or not in the best position then I don’t think you should be actively trying to have kids when you know that you do not have the means to care for them. However, you have the right to do whatever you want.
I think there is a big difference between having the right to have a kid and being responsible when having a kid.
Post # 155
konablend : as techmom : the premise of the debate is flawed. And I think it is relevant to talk about corporate welfare because the only reason they can have kids according to you is because they have money….but how did they get it? So playing the system and taking more than your fair share before you get pregnant is ok, but not after? It’s the same result. If billionaire employers paid a living wage and benefits, and if the US had parental leave, then a lot of this issue would be moot.
I also think this debate massively overlooks the social factors at play. Not everyone was raised with the knowledge of birth control and how to balance a checkbook. Some people choose to have lots of kids because they were deprived of love and think they’ll get that affection they desperately crave from their children. Or from the various men that father those children. And as Sansa85 : said “same house different home” is a very real thing – particularly of opposite gender siblings. I’m sorry that your loved ones aren’t getting what they need but I think that might be clouding your judgment. What makes your family more deserving than the people you are railing against?
Post # 156
Americans live in a country where some states can legally pay their employees $2/hour ($8/day!!) if they make enough tips to bring that hourly wage up to the federal minimum. And f**k me if the federal minimum wage is actually a living wage. I don’t know exactly where I mean to land with this argument, but maybe we should talk about how we *should* have a system that allows people to actually make a living before we talk about whether or not the people struggling to make a living *should* have kids knowing they may have to use government assistance.
Post # 157
LilliV : Deciding to have kids for a pay check isn’t the same as deciding to have kids because you always dreamed to be a mother someday. Poor or not. All I have left to say.
Post # 158
konablend : people have kids for millions of different reasons. Personally – I don’t care what someone’s motivation is so long as they are a good parent. Again, are these children neglected? Abused? If so then of course that person shouldn’t keep having kids. But she could also love her children and take excellent care of them with that welfare money. I know people who wanted to be mothers so badly and then regretted it and fiercely resent their children. But they were initially wanted and they can afford them so I guess that still makes them better than the welfare mom?
Post # 159
I think everyone should have the right to earn a living wage that would allow them to support a family if they chose to have one.
Post # 161
konablend : Also, I just now caught that you said women accrue 140 hours of PTO working 3-4 months. That’s pretty impossible. For a new job, the accrual for 4 months is 30 to 40 hours at best.
Even in California, which has the most generous parental benefits, you typically qualify for a full leave only when you work a year. Details depend on the city and the employer.
So I’m forced to conclude that there’s at least a bit of exaggeration on your part, along with some motivated reasoning.
Post # 162
techmom : Right? Especially since she specified these are $30k jobs she’s talking about. Idk any jobs at that level that lets you accumulate PTO that quickly. My job gave me 24 days PTO immediately upon starting but my salary is a little above $30k.
Post # 163
Part of examining the premises of the debate is to define the terms. What do you mean by “have the right”?
1. The legal right? You have whatever legal rights you can hire a lawyer to get a judge to agree you have, should they be challenged. Courts don’t get involved in reproduction much except for preventing or allowing abortion.
2. The moral right? This works out to “I approve/disapprove” of whatever is under discussion (and I think this eleven page conversation is really about whether or not people approve of others having children they can’t “afford,” which also hasn’t been defined much). Does each of the previous posters approve of someone’s having a child s/he can’t “afford,” somehow defined? If so, who is going to pay and how much, or does the child do without whatever it is?
3. The ability? People who are physically able to have children–well, they can have them. I would hate to see a legal system designed to prevent their having them: forced abortion? forced sterilization? forced adoption? (All of which have been tried, by the way, from time to time.)
Personally, I would like to see every child born to a loving, healthy, sane family with all sorts of resources, including financial, and into a safe, healthy world–and I know that’s a pipe dream and never going to happen. The less responsible a person is, the more likely they are to reproduce irresponsibly. (And I know I haven’t defined “responsible.”)
Post # 164
camenae : Wow! At my job (which I’ll grudgingly admit is well paid!) I started at 0 and accrued a little over 3 hours every 2 weeks. My accrual rate grows every year so I’m only now accruing 20+ days a year, after 6 years with my company- that’s almost WAY too long not to have switched jobs in the Bay Area. Starting at 0 is definitely the norm for my industry…
I probably need to switch jobs (and industries) STAT, but that will have to wait until soon after my maternity leave. After all, I’m now totally one of those moocher moms staying home, eating bonbons, and collecting a disability check a full week before I’m due. 😉