(Closed) Just a little rant about modesty…

posted 7 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 62
Member
2555 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: April 2013

@joya_aspera:  further to go is outfit not even being an issue. not covering up.

Post # 63
Member
8036 posts
Bumble Beekeeper
  • Wedding: December 2013

@bebero: further to go is outfit not even being an issue. not covering up.

I think that’s very wishful thinking. What we wear will always matter in some respect. Clothing is a part of human tradition… for both men and women. There are strong historical ties to what one wears. I don’t see how we can magically escape judgment if we know human history. Associations exist whether we like it or not.

Post # 64
Member
291 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: September 2011

@joya_aspera: How is you finding self-worth and confidence in dressing modestly and “elegantly,” as you put it, any different from other women finding confidence and joy in dressing more revealingly? Do you actually assert that every women who dresses revealingly (by your definition of “revealingly”, of course) lacks self-confidence and self-respect?

Beyond that, your posts have this underlying assumption that as women, it is our duty to dress primarily for an “audience” (i.e. the general public). That a woman shouldn’t choose to adorn her body with what she wants and likes, but rather that she should dress strategically so that others don’t judge her.  

Isn’t that the real problem here? I think this is what @BridieBea was getting at in her comments equating your POV with victim-blaming. We live in a culture where women are expected to “perform” a role and are judged extremely harshly on their appearance (whether that appearance is modest or more revealing). In this world, it is completely acceptable for men (and women, as illustrated by your comments) to extrapolate ridiculous and often incorrect information from a woman’s appearance. That she lacks confidence, that she lacks self-respect, that she is a fuddy-duddy, that she is boring, that she sleeps around, etc. By shaming women into changing their way of dress to fit what you perceive as the “best” way to present oneself to the world, all you are doing is playing into this system. I’m not interested in playing into the system as it is, I’m interested in challenging it because I think it’s pretty fucked up. 

In your description of the women at the Grammy’s, all you did was make numerous ungrounded judgments based entirely on what the women wore. Do you know any of the women personally? How in god’s name could you possibly know what their intentions were? Shouldn’t you be more disturbed by the fact that you judged all of these strong, powerful, talented women not on their personalities but solely on their appearances, than you are by the fact that they showed a little more skin than you’re comfortable with?

Post # 67
Member
6354 posts
Bee Keeper

@pookiesmom:  I believe that all of our adornment is in part a public display, it is unavoidably going to make some sort of a statement, and many of us intentionally use it that way. What we are “saying” is interpreted by others within the cultural context we “say” it in. Cultures have shared adornment-languages, that’s how we can interpret what an outfit “says” to most viewers, as long as we know the cultural context. This applies to both men and women, and I think your plea of (willful?) ignorance about North American contextual factors affecting most cultural members’ interpretation of what is “said” is not fully genuine.

If this were not the case, we would all dress in matching one-pieces and be done with it.

Post # 68
Member
65 posts
Worker bee
  • Wedding: September 2014

What a stupid pinterest board 😐

I think women should dress however they want to dress. But it should be “event appropriate”. Don’t wear a club dress to a funeral, and don’t wear uggs and sweatpants to the beach in the summer. That’s just weird. Unless you like being wierd, then more power to you.. lol

And fuck people who blame rape victims … seriously, they need to get their balls or boobs punched.

Post # 69
Member
1860 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: June 2013

@joya_aspera:  The way I understood it, pookiesmom wasn’t pleading any sort of ignorance about the cultural context that impacts outfit interpretation. In fact, her third paragraph was entirely about that – the F’ed up way that our culture has decided that it’s ok to draw all sorts of conclusions about people based solely upon what they wear.

@artsoul: I agree with the “event appropriate” part, but think it’s ridiculous that these “Guys on Modesty” think they really need to tell women how to dress modestly for different situations. Their “fall/winter modesty” board cracks me up. In states where it gets to be -50*, how the heck can you NOT dress modestly??  🙂

Post # 70
Member
6354 posts
Bee Keeper

@E_Lynne615:  I don’t think the fact that a culture shares an adornment-language is “f-ed up.” I also think it’s fairly unavoidable, so when someone points out some aspect of that language, it’s not quite genuine to make it seem like the person who pointed it out has come out with this bizarre interpretation she/he specifically has about the outfit, that big biased meanie.

It is also overstating things to say that it is “all” a person is judged by, just because it is a factor that we all take in when learning about a person and forming an impression, whether we acknowlegde it or not.

Post # 72
Member
65 posts
Worker bee
  • Wedding: September 2014

@E_Lynne615:  LOL guys who tell girls what is appropriate and what is not need to STFU. 

Post # 74
Member
291 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: September 2011

@joya_aspera: I’m not pleading any ignorance about the fact that we share a cultural adornment language. That, as you said, is unavoidable. What I am saying (and what I think E_Lynne is saying too) is that languages are always changing, and that rather than challenging women to adjust their behaviors to fit into your narrow definition of what is “classy and elegant” in order to be respected (by you, might I add), we work on changing the language as a whole so that women are not judged as insecure simply because they choose to wear a revealing dress. Accepting that there are social norms that come from living in a community is NOT the same thing as approving of these norms, and it CERTAINLY doesn’t preclude one from  working towards the creation of an adornment language that is less patriarchal and more empowering of women. From my perspective, you are putting forth an argument for how women can be respected and project positive self-image within the current (highly patriarchal) adornment language. What I am arguing is that we change the language itself so that it is less patriarchal.

And thank you @E_Lynne615 for your clarifying comment, it was spot on. 🙂

Post # 75
Member
642 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: February 2013

I feel like I should explain a little more because I think my last post could be interpreted the wrong way. I think the Guys on Modesty board is a whopping pile of horse-pucky. What I was railing against was the equation of modesty as a virtue with conservative clothing choices. They are emphatically not one and the same. Modesty is about the attitude behind clothing choices.

So can Anna be perfectly modest in that revealing dress and Courtney be immodest in the exact same dress? Absolutely. If Anna is wearing it because she likes it and Courtney is wearing it because she is equating her sexuality with her abilty to attract someone with her personality, then Anna is being modest and Courtney is not.

Modesty is having a healthy relationship with your sexuality and understanding that it’s not the only part of you that people will like. I think a lot of immodesty does come from low self-esteem, but you also can’t just look at a woman and tell what her feelings about her sexuality and personality are from what she’s wearing. And under no circumstances should the way a woman dresses be judged by virtue of how she makes men feel. Men are in charge of both their heads and their penises. If I wear a low-cut top, yes, I do think it’s their responsibility not to leer. It’s not my responsibility to make the world a temptation-free haven.

Post # 76
Member
1784 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: September 2013

I saw this floating around Tumblr a few weeks ago.  Thought it seemed appropriate to this discussion.

(source)

The topic ‘Just a little rant about modesty…’ is closed to new replies.

Find Amazing Vendors