Male Dentristy students making severe derogatory comments – what do you think?

posted 5 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 46
Member
9024 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

mildlybookish:  Well rape is still the only crime where the victim has to prove it actually happened and is often put on trial themselves with attacks on their actions and character.

The Bill Crosby thing amazes me. We had the same thing come out about a formerly much loved Australian actor called Robert Hughes. He was the Bill Crosby like star of a TV show called Hey Dad. The sad thing is that since the actress he molested came foward other cast members and production crew have gone on record to say they noticed things. Why did they never say anything? Even if it was just to this child actors mother? But still there were people doubting her story even after more women came forward. It took her over 20 years to come forward. The amount of time it takes for women to feel safe enough to come forward shows how fucked up the system is. It is usually when the person dies or is old and therefore no longer a threat (Bill Crosby, Robert Hughes, Rolph Harris, Garry Glitter to name a few examples).

Post # 47
Member
1521 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: January 2015

j_jaye:  It’s so true about that a victim of rape is the one who has to provide the evidence. The perpetrator is not required to defend themselves or to provide evidence why they didn’t do it.

This was an article that came out after the Jian Ghomeshi story broke in Canada. I’m not sure if you heard about it, but he was a well known radio personality who physically assaulted women on dates. Again, there were multiple women but nothing was ever reported at the time. He is now facing criminal charges – so we will see where that goes.

As you mentioned about Robert Hughes, people came out afterwards to speak about what they witnessed. The same happened with Jian Ghomeshi. People who worked in the industry would warn their female friends to stay away from him or pass on to others that something was off about him.

There were a lot of questions about why women don’t report these crimes. This was a powerful article that I read about the amount of scrutiny and questioning that victims go through when reporting. And often it is the victims’ lives that are destroyed and no convictions laid. Even still many of the women involved in the allegations against Ghomeshi are remaining anonymous partly due to concerns of repercussions on their careers.

What Kind of Women Won’t Report Sexual Assault? http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sandy-garossino/jian-ghomeshi-women-report-sex-assault_b_6059124.html

I agree with what you said. The way that the system works right now doesn’t encourage victims of abuse to come forward. And that is over and above the amount of time that an individual might need to even acknowledge to themselves what happened to them and to be able to tell another person.

Another article with food for thought.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-women-who-are-sexually-assaulted-remain-silent/article21414605/?page=all

Post # 48
Member
3232 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: September 2016

j_jaye: why not make a course on professionalism in the workplace mandatory and include discussions on equality there?

 

For one, 95-99% of the population is already aware that asking specifically who you would rather hate-fuck and making jokes about rape under anaesthetic is totally wrong.

Post # 50
Member
30 posts
Newbee
  • Wedding: August 2014

 

mildlybookish: As a Canadian who has strong ties to a restorative justice agency who uses the approach with individuals who have criminal charges of a sexual nature, I can tell you that that article you’ve posted is not based in fact. Here in Canada we do indeed use restorative justice in other instances, including the ones mentioned. And restorative justice is actually much better suited to this specific instance, as the legal system strips away the voices of the women who have been victimized. Restorative justice gives them a voice and allows them to be part of the process. Restorative justice is being used in our Canadian communities, and it does work. We simply don’t hear about it often (unless you’re looking for it) because there’s a cultural hard-on from our southern neighbor for harder and longer jail times, that stats have shown simply does not work. Restorative justice is simply another option, and in this case, an appropriate valid one – not a misogynistic one.

  • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  .
Post # 52
Member
30 posts
Newbee
  • Wedding: August 2014

AB Bride:  I pulled a quote from the article that I think gets to what the female student wants and why the restorative justice solution is “shocking”:<br /><br />”We work with them every day; we’ve worked with them for four years. We just need someone who’s impartial to maybe help us get through this, or figure it out.”<br /><br />That’s exactly how the process of restorative justice happens. Impartial mediators help facilitate the process. There is a process that is just as complex as that of our legal court system. They don’t just sit at a table and say, hey, what do you think we should do about this? We need your answer in the next 30 seconds. They discuss facts. They discuss potential recourse. They discuss the implications of every ‘punishment’. They discuss this, and allow all voices to be heard – even the ones that go against restorative options.<br /><br />Every student has the right to feel however they want in regards to the proposed solution – but I wonder how this particular student would feel if/when nothing is really done about it (because we already fully know how rape culture/actual sexual violence is treated by university boards and the legal system). If/when they get a slap on the wrist, it would be a whole lot more than simply “shocking” – I’d wager there would be an element of feeling further victimized by the institution by not having a voice in the matter.

Post # 53
Member
9024 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

babeba:  We actually have regular courses on things like that. I am pretty sure that every workplace here is legally required to have a policy on sexual harassment/work place conduct and it is included in induction. We had a mandatory professional ethics class for both my degrees. 

So yeah despite it being common knowledge there is no harm in educating or refreshing education on a matter like this. Just because 90-99% of people know this behaviour is wrong does not mean that 90-99% of people actually live it. Given that so much is unreported it is probably more like a 20-30% offending rate.

Post # 54
Member
814 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: September 2013

j_jaye:  I agree about the name being not published but on the other side my university would have most likely expelled these students for this behaviour.

 

additionally, part of joining a profession is that you only allow those with exemplary ethics to join.   You will require refereals and I’ve heard any police files (e.g drunk driving) can exclude you from the profession.  If the dentistry profession follows its act I find it questionable that they would accept these boys into the practice.

Being young and stupid does not exempt you from making jokes on raping or killing someone.

  • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  Ettalie.
  • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  Ettalie.
Post # 55
Member
4507 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: September 2010

The students making these comments should have been expelled immediately. First, the ideas they are expressing are obviously abhorrent, and second, expressing them in writing online shows TERRIBLE judgment. These guys are not fit for the profession for which they’re being trained. 

Post # 56
Member
9024 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

Ettalie:  I agree but that will be a consequence that they may have to face. But they may not as well. It is not up to us to decide but the dentistry registration board as per their code of ethics. 

Here only certain police charges can even be asked about and it is dependent upon the field you are entering. For example if you are entering the banking field they can ask about fraud or laundering charges but they cannot ask about a DUI.

Post # 57
Member
814 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: September 2013

j_jaye:  My point exactly.  I can’t judge on behalf of the field but since regulated professions act in a similar style I assume this would be the logical step.  to give you an example, in my profession, those who go to a formal hearing and have any disciplinary actions taken on them are publicly published with the disciplinary action, some loose their license based on the nature of the grievance.  Loss of license means you cannot practice in the field. if they fail to act accordingly (or judgement is different than what the public expects) they have to provide darn good justifications or face the province removing their self governance act.

Here being part of a self regulated profession which was given power by the actual province (aka state) is a privilege so they can request whatever document they require within reason to make their assessment and judgement (E.g can’t request a credit check but police backgrounds and university files are acceptable)

Post # 58
Member
3232 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: September 2016

j_jaye:  I honestly think that if you don’t understand why it is wrong to behave like that by postgrad university, a class at that point isn’t going to change your patterns of behaviour. It starts with teaching kids about respect in preschool and elementary, and then reinforcing it through Jr. High and High school along with the message that men and women are equals, so it is entirely wrong to act in a manner towards a woman you would think derogatory towards yourself.

By the time you reach the work world, policies are set against workplace harassment and you get kicked out (i.e. fired) for breaches. It should be the same for universities – break the policy and bam, you’re out.

Post # 59
Member
1521 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: January 2015

Omevi:  Thanks for your perspective. I haven’t had personal involvement with restorative justice and have just begun learning about it. I’ll do some more reading about the subject. Do you have any suggestions?

Post # 60
Member
9024 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

babeba:  No I agree there is always going to be a subset of the population that doesn’t think like their peers or society as a whole. However it is important to keep talking about it and reinforcing it so that everyone knows it is unacceptable and knows it is the right thing to report such behaviour, how to report such behaviour and why not to get caught up (peer pressure) in that sort of behaviour. And that shouldn’t stop just because you get to a certain age.

I agree that these boys should be expelled. I am surprised it hasn’t happened. Here you would be expelled for much less.

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