My friends racist grandpa.

posted 3 months ago in The Lounge
Post # 46
Member
600 posts
Busy bee

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@moonbrooke:  The memorabilia is probably a part of the delusional process and might cause him more stress to have it removed. But I wonder if it has been tried? That is a good idea, the key would be to get him on board with it though. 

Post # 47
Member
213 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: April 2021

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@unicornwolf:  That is true, when I was going through a psychotic episode when I was 23 and told to stop reading my Lovecraft novels because I thought I was a prophet of Dagon, I wasn’t too happy about that either and refused to give up my books.

Post # 48
Member
1149 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: July 2013

I also think that given his condition, the family should consider removing the collection. Perhaps it could be donated to a museum or society that would strictly be interested in documenting history. The family could discuss this with a health professional first.

On another note, my mother had relatives killed by Germans in Poland, and we believe some of her relatives died at Auschwitz. My Dad lost relatives fighting the Nazis in WWII. My parents taught me that Hitler was a monster. But on our bookshelves was a copy of Hitler’s autobiography Mein Kampf “My Struggle”. It was there as a historical document, i.e., this is how the evil.man thought. I even tried reading a little of it as a kid and found it incomprehensible.It was there amongst historical WWII books, and in no way represented support from anyone in our family.

I will never forget the shock on my husband’s face though when I told him we had had a copy of Mein Kampf in our house.

 

 

 

 

Post # 49
Member
848 posts
Busy bee

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@socalgirl1689:  Yeah, I am against the blanket public labeling of people as racist due to the color of their skin, without good evidence, especially when there could be other innocuous explanations for their behavior. Doing so anonymously on this forum out of a sense of personal concern is one thing, so I completely defend that, but the ‘racist’ by default attitude is not one I agree with at all. When this sort of accusation is carelessly thrown about publicly, it has serious consequences to people’s careers, lives, and livelihood. How does it resolve the basic issue? It doesn’t, it makes it worse. And yet, on the flip side, in the absence of information about someone’s motives, which may be completely pure, I’m simply keeping away when I see a potential (and literal, in this case) red flag. It’s the sensible thing to do. 

As for the clip, yeah, I’ve seen the one you reference or something similar. For the black members of the US Olympic team, some described the trip as the highlight of their lives because they were housed in the integrated Olympic village. How tragic it must have seemed to them, back to their reality of segregation. 🙁

 

 

Post # 50
Member
848 posts
Busy bee

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@Anonymous1063:  What a tragic history your family has had. 🙁 On the one hand it’s clearly such a trauma inducing book for your family, but on the other hand I can see why your family, desperate for closure, may just be searching for an explanation as to why this all had to happen. As much as the book is a worthless piece of garbage, there’s still value in understanding the psychology behind it so we can recognize it when it happens again.

It’s also why I think it’s important in today’s climate not to shut down political voices from the other side- no chance of beating their ideas if we don’t know the first thing about their motivation or psychology. 

Post # 51
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2452 posts
Buzzing bee

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@socalgirl1689:  

I don’t appreciate you very conveniently splicing my reply in a way that serves you. That’s not a good faith discussion. 

If you look at what I actually said, “I would assume anyone collecting and displaying Nazi memorabilia had affinity for Nazi ideology.”

I also did not say that you were or weren’t anything. I said that it seems like you’re not. And the reason I say that is based on your replies, which have heavily been focused on asking people not to jump to conclusions regarding racist and anti-semitic imagery being displayed.

I’m not going to engage with you on this further. I will reiterate OP was right not to take any chances with regard to this situation or any other that she may find herself in that her gut tells her is not right. There are things you only pick up on if you are part of a group that has faced discrimination or persecution (i.e. things you may think are innocuous but are coded language or subtle cues for racism or anti-semitism). Yes, it means people can be more vigilant and it’s not an easy thing to explain to someone on an internet forum.

You’re welcome to keep posting your opinion as much as you want. I still think it’s irrelevant to the real-life experience of people who actually have to think about their safety consciously, and that is my prerogative.

Post # 52
Member
5343 posts
Bee Keeper

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@MissMarple:  “I don’t appreciate you very conveniently splicing my reply in a way that serves you”… LOL Your reply makes zero sense. First of all and in case you forgot, YOU TAGGED ME fon your reply so I replied back to you ACCORDINGLY. Now you can’t take the heat back? In case you are still not aware, that’s what people do in this website. Was I suppose to just listen to you and quietly agree? And WHO ARE YOU to judge what’s a “good faith discussion”?  Get off your high horse.

One of the bees in this thread who is a POC admitted to buying and “displaying” a Nazi memorabilia because she “finds it interesting”. So she immediately has “affinity for Nazi ideology”  because that’s what you “assume”? Plus, you saying, “It seems like you were not” regarding you having no clue what race, ethnicity or religion am I or what discrimination I have encountered in my life all goes back to you…making assumptions.

Nowhere did I say that OP should stay the night at her friends house. For the second time, I’m telling you I told her not to stay there because she likely doesn’t feel comfortable because of those items plus her safety with someone undergoing Alzheimer’s. Go back to my earlier posts in this thread if you don’t believe me. I don’t know why you are re-explaining this when you and I both are saying she should not be in a situation where “her gut tells her is not right”.

All I’m saying was in this case of the grandpa, owning the Nazi memorabilia that he inherited from his dad should not be immediately assumed that he is a racist. You gotta dig in deeper where, how, why, etc. which OP did. I don’t know how else to simplify it. It’s a waste of time trying to explain something to you when you don’t understand it or you just refuse to. I will keep on posting what I think whether you find it “irrelevant” or not. No one is stopping me to give my input just because it isn’t to their liking. 

And since you like to assume quite a bit with your replies, here’s something for you:

“Assumptions are made. And most assumptions are wrong.”-Albert Einstein (a German-born Ashkenazi Jew who fled Nazi-ruled Germany in the 1930’s. I’m sure you know of him).

Post # 53
Member
1390 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: September 2011

I really don’t like how you’re bringing up POCs to serve your own argument’s needs in this thread. Just because someone is a POC doesn’t mean that they cannot be into Nazi ideology. Just because someone is a POC doesn’t mean that they would have been killed by Nazis either.

If you we’re looking historically at WW2, the Japanese aligned themselves with Nazi Germany and were pronounced honorary Aryans by Hitler.

If you look at the present day, there is a lot of Hitler fascination and idolization among Indian Hindu nationalists who view themselves to be Aryan cousins of Germany.

I find it pretty damn disturbing that you are talking to a Jewish person in this way.

The OP and PP both have historical and present-day reasons to feel the way they do, and whether you think anyone is making assumptions or not their fear is valid. Not everyone gets to have the benefit of the doubt all the time. Black people certainly don’t in the US. So I’m not going to lose sleep over someone making an assumption over people who display Nazi memorabilia.

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@socalgirl1689:  

Post # 54
Member
5343 posts
Bee Keeper

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@franklymydearidont:  

No, what I’m trying to point out is PP’s replies has a lot to do with assumptions. Whether you not like/like me pointing things out to OP such as her assuming including POC owning memorabilias makes no difference to me. “I find it disturbing that you are talking to a Jewish person in this way”….???

Post # 55
Member
1390 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: September 2011

Do you know about how Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust or how many Jewish lives were lost? Doesn’t it make sense then, that a Jewish person would be very careful around anyone who displays Nazi memorabilia? I’m not sure what the confusion is.

I don’t think that any of the PPs in the thread are saying to judge someone as guilty of anything without proof that they are guilty. There is a difference in initially assuming someone might be one way and being careful around someone who may be a threat until their innocence is cleared and judging someone as guilty. I think you’re seeing it in the opposite way. But when we’re talking about personal safety some people have learned that they don’t have the luxury of giving the benefit of the doubt until they have all of the information. In other words, it is safer to have their guard up while collecting information to make sure that they remain safe. And that makes sense to me.

Yes, people are also saying that BIPOC don’t get given the benefit of the doubt, and I agree that that’s unfortunately true. But I think that’s more to say that in the real world not everyone gets the benefit of the doubt all the time, so not everyone has to give the benefit of the doubt all the time.

At least that’s what I got out of reading the replies.

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@socalgirl1689:  

Post # 56
Member
31 posts
Newbee

OP if you feel uncomfortable staying at your friend’s house for whatever reason, just don’t stay there.  You have every right to feel what you feel. Protecting yourself could never be a bad thing.  I do think there could be a difference between Grandpa ‘displaying’ the items as opposed to them being in a room that you happened to fall upon looking for the bathroom.  If he had the items on the fireplace mantle in the living room or on the patio table at the cookout you attended… then that would absolutely be very disturbing.  My own grandfather was wounded by the Germans and subsequently was a POW in WW2 for several years.  You would be amazed by the things that he had in his possession.  These young people (at the time) went through some things that young adults nowadays may not completely understand.  

Post # 57
Member
5343 posts
Bee Keeper

Approximately 6 million. “Doesn’t it make sense that a Jewish person would be careful around anyone…”. I see your point. You explained it well. However, it wasn’t just the Nazi memorabilia = Nazi ideology she mentioned. She also made an assumption that it “seemed” to her that I haven’t been discriminated ever without knowing anything about my background. How does she know I’m not Jewish as well? Just like a PP mentioned earlier, I do my best not to blanket label a group of people with limited info because many times when you do that, you end up being wrong. Sure, I’ll be concerned and keep my guard up but not to the point where it’s guilty until proven innocent type of thing. 

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@franklymydearidont:  

Post # 58
Member
236 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: September 2018

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@Anonymous1063:  Unless it’s something really rare/unusual, usually a museum won’t want Nazi memorabilia (not because of the controversy, just because there’s so much of it out there and people are constantly offering it to museums).

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