Opponents of stricter gun control – what would it take to change your mind?

posted 2 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 526
9819 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper
  • Wedding: September 2013

janedoe27 :  as “guns” are not specifically mentioned in the Bible, please explain how Christianity and/or GOD is relevant to the discussion.  

Post # 527
2969 posts
Sugar bee

janedoe27 : 

If you are telling me that you are a child of GOD then that is great, but being a child of God surely must mean that you are forever in a state of doubt rather than a state of certainty, especially when it comes to guns.

The Bible is an uncomfortable book, particularly the New Testament. It says nothing about how to treat the mentally ill or criminals but it does have quite a lot to say about love and compassion, beating our swords into ploughshares, turning the other cheek, forgiving our enemies, going that extra mile and submitting to one another.

This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t protect people in danger (indeed this is part of law enforcement) but if we use guns merely to protect ourselves and in doing so put other people at greater risk then I think that this would be immoral and quite possibly against what Jesus would want.

And that’s the big question – if you keep hold of your guns will it make other people (and I’m not just talking about immediate family here) safer or in greater danger?

Whether you are American or not and whether the Second Amendment exists or not, makes no difference to this question. That’s because being a Christian is more important than being an American, and what Jesus said is more important than what is written in the Second Amendment.

And that’s why you shouldn’t be certain and why you shouldn’t love your guns.

I suspect that in heaven there are only water pistols.

Post # 528
7751 posts
Bumble Beekeeper

glitterati :  I wouldn’t hold your breath. If she does come back it’ll probably be to complain of bullying and not feeling “safe” voicing her opinion. This is the go-to response among people who’ve been backed into a corner with a baseless argument.

Btw, nice response. I’d never heard of ArmaLite. 

Post # 529
1225 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: October 2017

Post # 530
1336 posts
Bumble bee

janedoe27 :  I fully support the 2nd amendment 

If that were actually true you would have a lot more respect for it and be as much in favor as common sense gun regulation as anyone.  You don’t support the 2nd amendment, you abuse it.

I knew exactly what AR stands for, your condescension is very unbecoming.  As is your obvious belief that you are special among us because you’re married to LEO and related to a veteran.  Do you have any clue how many of us share DNA and close family relationships with veterans and LEO’s?  Not to mention teachers, community organizers and office holders?  You’re not as special as you think you are.  We are all your equal and no less valid that you are.

If you are a child of god, she oughta give you a stern talking to.  I know my mother would if I had your attitude.

Post # 532
10026 posts
Sugar Beekeeper
  • Wedding: City, State

Not just a great song and tour anymore but a commentary on current events. 

Post # 533
2969 posts
Sugar bee

I’m probably the only one here who has experienced the local school being attacked by a gunman. I’m vehemently anti-guns and you all know what I think of the NRA (the bastards).

On the thread please keep to counterarguments, even if provoked.

I’ve yet to come across a coherent pro-gun argument – especially the idea of arming a teacher with a handgun against a shooter with an AR-15, in an enclosed classroom with only one entrance/exit and nowhere to hide.

Post # 534
1334 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: September 2005 - A Castle

Supersleuth :  Sadly, no. Twice for me: once as a student and once as a parent. 

Post # 535
2969 posts
Sugar bee

dracarys :  How awful for you and your family. I’m sorry to hear it.

Post # 536
14969 posts
Honey Beekeeper
  • Wedding: June 2011

 @janedoe: We have gun control laws in place. Criminals and the mentally ill just don’t respect them. 

Then obviously the control isnt very good then if it can be bypasssed by criminals and mentally ill, and maybe something more should be done about it?  As the wife of a police office I would think of all people, you would want to get more of these illegally obtained weapons off the streets to ensure that your husband doesnt ever have to be on the other end of one of them.

Post # 537
6827 posts
Busy Beekeeper

janedoe27 :  No child of GOD would support the current gun laws. I don’t know any police officers who do, either.

Post # 538
3008 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: October 2011

janedoe27 :  Thanks for your response! I have a question for people, like you, who feel very passionately about the second amendment. Do you feel as strongly about the other amendments, like the third, for example? What about the 18th and 21st? Just curious.

Post # 539
1812 posts
Buzzing bee

wineandthings : I’m not going to say anything more on this post because it’s clear that gun BANS, not CONTROL or even enforcements of existing controls, is at the heart of the dissent. And that is why pro-gun people shut down when these “conversations” arise. Ban = a loss of freedom that is important to them, just as important as gun “control” is to most people who commented on this thread. It’s hard to understand the other side when you can’t relate to it.

But I really wanted to comment on your home invasion example/post. A few years ago my ex and I experienced a home invasion at 1:30 am, while we were home and awake. We saw a group of 13 youths, aged 13-16, on our street corner. A few had climbed on each other’s shoulders trying to rip the street sign down off a telephone pole. When my ex asked what the heck they were doing, non-threateningly from our bedroom window, they jumped to the ground and all 11 males rushed the front door and proceeded to kick it in–all the while screaming they were going to kill us. Only the 2 females in the group stayed behind at the street corner. I called 911 immediately. I let my snarling, barking bulldog loose from his crate in the kitchen–it didn’t deter them one bit. They took note of the dog and continued to work on kicking in the inside door since the outer one was demolished. The knife I was holding in my hand didn’t matter either. As they broke the glass pane nearest the door handle, my ex finally made it downstairs with his handgun. He did not point it at them but up in the air. Finally, they were deterred and ran off. I saw the guys in the front of the group at the door look at the gun, yell to the others that my boyfriend had a gun, and then they all ran off. It took another 5 minutes for the cops to arrive. Come to find out (the police did catch them), they were high on drugs and alcohol. They were unarmed. Yet it was 11 to 2. Mob mentality, strength in numbers, fueled by substances–they didn’t care about the dog or the knife.

I wanted to present a different perspective so you know the elements you outlined in a previous post for self-protection are not always effective. I know, I’ve lived it. 

Yes, I’m pro-gun and yes I carry a 9 mm. I’ve been shooting ever since I was 5 years old. I’ve had safety training and classes. I am a responsible gun owner and now you know a little bit as to why. My husband owns an AR-15….which is a hunting gun… and has the same shooting action as my 9 mm. We both own guns for several different reasons but none of them involve shooting innocent children or people. Ever. However, self-protection has been a concern. We live in the largest city in our state and the story I’ve told is, sadly, not the only issue we’ve had.

I can see the argument for enforcement of controls that already exist. That clearly has not happened and it must from now on and should have happened all along. I can see the argument for mental health background screening before being allowed to legally purchase a gun–if responsible gun owners must wait a few weeks longer to bring a firearm home and it’s in the best interests of community safety, so be it. But I will never support a gun BAN. There are valid reasons as to not supporting a ban just as there are valid reasons to figure out better controls. 

But no one ever pushing a full on ban and citing facts from different countries will ever sway me otherwise. No one telling me to get a dog or use a knife or a taser or pepper spray instead will ever sway me. No one telling me to wait for the cops will ever sway me. Because 11 to 2. And because it’s a right I’ve always had and exercised responsibly. I am part of the responsible majority. And because I might not be here to write this post if it weren’t for a gun. This is just my story. But it’s important to me. Now…multiply that by all the other responsible gun owners in this country who have their reasons and stories. 


Post # 540
2969 posts
Sugar bee

Gsxr06 :  Thanks for your reply. I’m sorry that you had to undergo such an experience.

You know that I’m not going to entirely agree with you but we can at least have a civilised discussion.

I’m sure that you are responsible gun owners. I note that your husband pointed the gun not at the intruders but at the ceiling. This not only avoided accidentally shooting someone but demonstrated that a gun was present without provoking any further violence. (Who knows how a person is going to behave if a gun is pointed directly at them.) However, I think that your post demonstrates that it isn’t enough to have a gun – you have to have good sense.

Good sense isn’t just sanity or lack of criminality. It is about being able to assess a situation. Another person might simply have shot at the intruders and killed a minor. Or another person might have pointed the gun at the group and been rushed by them.

The Second Amendment doesn’t say anything about good sense.  It allows any fool to own any number of guns provided they don’t have a criminal record. 

It has also created a situation where there are far too many guns in circulation and military equipment can be accessed by criminals, the mentally ill and those without any moral compass.

On top of this is the glorification of the gun. I was shocked at the NRA site. I would almost go as far as to say that it promotes the sexualisation of the gun. The photos are carefully lit to look ‘sexy’ to men. (In addition the phallic symbolism is not lost on any of us.)

The NRA also has racist undertones. A white man is seen as a protector while an African American man is seen as a threat. Its photos are predominantly of white men and, as I’ve said in an earlier post, any photos of African Americans, where they do exist, are ‘made safe’ by making sure they are portrayed in an entirely different manner. They are not allowed to point a gun directly or indirectly in the direction of the camera. They are ‘made safe’ using time (archive photos), position (back to camera), distance (in a distant country) or uniform (US military uniform turns them from a threat into a protector).

It also equates gun ownership with Patriotism. This  is done so that the anti-gun lobby is labelled unpatriotic. The message is that to love America you have to love the gun. This is clearly nonsense.

The Second Amendment is no longer the pure thing it once was. It’s about power, money, race and sexualised gun worship. It’s about encouraging people to think of their rights rather than their responsibilities. It’s about equating guns with being American.

What it is no longer about is a man of sense defending his family.

As an aside – is the AR-15 a sporting/hunting rifle?

Well we need to ask three questions. 

Does it kill an animal cleanly and does the animal have a good chance of getting away? (The idea of a sport is that there is no certain winner and that there is a reasonably level playing field. Hunting when in need of food is an entirely different matter.)

The third question is about the gun’s original design because this is what it will be best at. It is based on a military weapon that was designed to kill and injure humans in as an efficient manner as possible. Is this what we want civilians to have?

Please bear all this in mind when considering the Second Amendment.

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