(Closed) Orlando shootings

posted 4 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 226
Member
237 posts
Helper bee

sparkles1986:  Wow, what a great post. Very informative for me anyway. I’m British and we do not have a gun society, I don’t want one and I find America’s attachment to guns terrifying, and the likes of Trump quite scary in their refusal to even look at the problems with having so many guns in civilian hands. BUT: I really respect you for pointing out the other side of the argument and you really gave me an insight into why that attachment exists. I also got a bashing by a few bees for pointing out the fact the gunman pledged alliegance to ISIS- they wanted to discount and censor that totally obvious part of the story in case it upset muslims. It was quite annoying to argue with people who couldn’t address my points in logical way, and didn’t even understand or read properly what I’d written, so I gave up! To be fair I think BalletParker mainly has been quite factual on this gun issue. I liked her posts too.

One thing I would add is that everyone seems to have a partial view on ‘what ISIS’ want, as if they care what Western societies do about guns, or immigration or human rights or protest marches showing love against hate ..or anything. It’s so Western-centric. They seriously do NOT care. They see us all as stupid infidels and totally irrelevant. All we can say from the evidence of their own words is that they want an Islamic totalitarian caliphate under sharia law that encompasses the whole world, whether that’s by forced or voluntary conversion, or by killing people off, and that allah will find a way to help them to achieve that. So what we do or don’t do about gun law really will not bother them either way.

I believe you do care about keeping people safe and I wouldn’t want you demonised for having a different viewpoint on how you get there, so here I am- someone not demonising you! 😉

 

 

Post # 227
Member
2792 posts
Sugar bee

sparkles1986:  Great post bee. I agree with you on so many points. But here on the bee, unless ones opinion is very liberal, one shall not post or be subjected to an intense backlash. Because, in a country where we theoretically have all those  freedoms, one is not allowed an opinion. Being in the field of law, students were always incouraged to defend their opinions no matter how controversial, as long as one had a solid reasoning and explanation behind it. 

Post # 228
Member
1703 posts
Bumble bee

sparkles1986:  

BRAVO!! Thank you for taking the time to post that!!

Post # 229
Member
7418 posts
Busy Beekeeper
  • Wedding: October 2014

Do keep in mind that the Orlando gunman also claimed he was part of Hezbollah, and he also claimed ties to Al-Qaeda. While many Americans don’t know the difference between these groups, they are not the same thing and they’re actually not allies. It would be highly unusual for an ISIS suicide killer to claim support for or by any of these other groups.

It is looking more and more like this is an unhinged person who had access to too much TV and Internet to go along with too much access to guns.

(http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/06/orlando_shooter_may_not_have_u.html)

And since we can’t blame ISIS any more,  sadly it looks like we are going to wrap ourselves in the flag, stick our fingers in our ears, and scream about the Second Amendment instead of actually having a sensible conversation about why this keeps happening.

 

Post # 230
Member
1039 posts
Bumble bee

This is what I don’t necessarily agree with when it comes to the gun control debate… why is the idea of “some” restrictions equivalent to all guns being taken away?

Asking for an individual who is on the “no fly list” to be restricted to getting a firearm does not mean everyone who owns a gun is going to lose their rights to a gun. They are not even equivalent. And should someone find themselves restricted from purchasing a firearm, there is also a due process clause in the bill of rights, which means and individual has a right to an attorney to fight those restrictions should they be unreasonable.

There are reasonable steps we can and should be taking on this issue. Stephen Colbert noted on his show last night that “love rewrites the script” but also that “love is a verb.” We cannot keep saying we are so sad and sorry for these actions and yet continue to do nothing.

Is the issue of gun control complex? Yes. But we can’t keep sitting on the sidelines doing nothing.

As far as the tone, the attacks, the idea that conservatives on this board are the only ones who are victims of insults, name-calling and being “flagged”, as someone who has been flagged several times for her liberal opinion, name-called, and baited, sorry, the mirror swings both ways there. The difference is, I don’t see myself as a victim of the conservative bees. I understand that sometimes passions run high and people can get harsh. It’s called debate. And sometimes it gets heated.

Post # 231
Member
2792 posts
Sugar bee

“Why this keeps happening” – because there are sick, disturbed, evil people in this world, who can do a lot of harm with whatever resources they have at hand. Remeber the  April 2014 Ürümqi attack in china – terrorists did not have any guns, they had knives and home made bombs. SEVENTY NINE people where injured. And just the following month, same place, 45 people killed in a shopping center by home-made explosives. Again, no guns. That’s just a few examples.

 

Post # 233
Member
11575 posts
Sugar Beekeeper
  • Wedding: June 2015

For those who say they are supporting Donald Trump because he will let them keep their guns, he just flip flopped and now supports the No Fly No Buy bill.

even Donald trump can read poll numbers. Americans want gun restrictions. 

Post # 234
Member
2680 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: September 2014

We cannot enact common sense guns laws in the US due to the 2nd Amendment “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Despite the fact that when the 2nd Amendment was ratified in 1791 the founding father’scould not have imagined the weaponry that exists today or the epidemic of gun violence that exists in present day US, the US constitution is set in stone and cannot be altered or amended. Hence, the fact that Mitt Romney is currently serving as President Obama’s VP and that slaves count as 3/5 of a person for congressional representation purposes.

Post # 235
Member
1411 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: May 2016

Thanks bees, interesting debate.

Post # 236
Member
10016 posts
Sugar Beekeeper
  • Wedding: September 2012

solnishko1186:  So true!  Evil, deranged people will find/steal/make/buy-on-the-black-market/ whatever weapons they can if it’s their intention to cause harm to other innocent people.  Criminals always have guns, i.e., weapons, because criminals don’t care about laws.

Post # 237
Member
7418 posts
Busy Beekeeper
  • Wedding: October 2014

WestCoastV:  SO MUCH THIS.

It’s ok to change the Constitution when it comes to making and selling alcohol, and it’s okay to ignore it entirely when it comes to the separation of church and state. But when it comes to guns, the 2nd Amendment is written in stone, never to be changed, despite the militia being mostly suburbanites, soccor moms and other random civilians, and not regulated at all.

solnishko1186:  Over 30,000 people in the US were killed by guns last year. While this number includes suicides, accidental deaths and the smaller scale homicide, that is a lot of people, and far more than the count of those dying by fertilizer bombs and other means. Simply put, while it’s true that people who are committed to doing evil will do evil with whatever’s on hand, guns make it a lot easier for the evil-doers to rack up a big body count. They also make it easier for suicides and accidental deaths.  

Post # 238
Hostess
9694 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper
  • Wedding: March 2014 - Chicago, IL

I’m just going to leave this here.

Post # 239
Member
260 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: August 2015

sparkles1986:  I’ll quote Step Brothers: Did we just become best friends??? That was an AMAZING post and you took the words right out of my mouth. Unfortunately I don’t post much about my beliefs on the bee because they instantly get attacked. Youre awesome! 

Post # 240
Member
2792 posts
Sugar bee

Horseradish:  A bomb thrown into a crowded place can and did kill more people in a single incident than mass attack with a gun . If someone is contemplating and attemps suicide, there is no research to say that instead of a gun, the person would not do it by other means – pills, hanging, jump, etc. And as far as accidents, there has been over 33k deaths from car accidents in US just in 2015 alone. Do we ban cars also?

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