Post # 32
@letigre: I have been pregnant and it was a risky pregnancy where I was bed ridden the full 9 months so I do know the havoc it can take on a body.
I do also know there is a thing called birth control, a thing called condoms and a thing called abstinance. All of which should have been used to prevent a pregnancy if unwanted.
Just because a woman does not want to carry a child does not mean she should have the full say as it’s not just her child she’s deciding on. She didn’t get pregnant alone and the major decisions of the childs life or lack of life should be made by both parents.
If it is shown that there is a threat to the woman to carry full term then maybe the father shouldn’t be entitled to an opinion as much, but they both decided to do the deed that got her pregnant, they both should have a say in what happens.
Post # 33
This is not an equality issue but an equity one. The man should get SOME say, but the woman should get final say.
Post # 34
- Wedding: March 2012 - Pelican Grand Beach Resort
@kris325: What about the mental stress and damage that a woman culd suffer from being forced to carry a baby to term and deliver it and the harm it could do to her financially and professionally? A man cannot carry that burden for her.
Not always did the women consent to the deed, by the way. Some women are raped. Also, no form of birth control is 100% effective, even abstinence. A womn can have every intention of being abstinent and still be raped.
Post # 35
@kris325: your argument uses many of the same premises used for anti-abortion/pro-life arguments, which show a clear disregard for rights to bodily autonomy and integrity. In effect, you are placing the life and rights of the father and child above the mother and “incubator,” if you will.
I would only support your proposition if with the consent of woman, you could non-invasively remove the cluster of cells from her body to the body of a hired surrogate.
Otherwise, I will never agree to a scheme where the rights of one person (fetus or not, father or not) supercedes the rights of another. I’m glad my Conservative Prime Minister and most members of Parliament agree, because personal autonomy is a basic tenet of a civilized developed society.
Post # 36
What I’m seeing is the defense of the mothers mental state in having to carry a baby full term, but no consideration for the fathers mental state if his child was aborted. If a woman was forced into abortion by the father I could see others fighting the mental impact of the woman having to abort her fetus but no consideration goes to the fathers mental state if the fetus is aborted?
Now I’m pro life to an extent, however I do believe there are cases where it’s warranted and I do believe that women have a right to do this, however I believe it should be avoided at all costs before doing so (such as birth control abstinence and the possibility of adoption before jumping to abortion). I do not however believe that a woman has more say in this case than a man. It may be her body but it’s his child as well and going through an unwanted abortion is traumatizing in both men and women. Womens mental rights should not supersede a mans.
Post # 37
My first issue is with this being called murder. I am by no means a lawyer or well versed in the law but it should probably fall under some sort of assault to the woman’s body. I am pro-choice and I’m worried what kind of precedent this will set in the changing of abortion laws.
On the matter of a man getting a say in whether a woman gets an abortion or not, I guess I’ll step out and share my story. I’m not looking for judgement, just trying to give perspective. When I was 15 I was raped and became pregnant. For many reasons, I decided to terminate. It was the right choice, but one that still hurts a little every day. A few years later, my boyfriend and I got pregnant. He told me if I loved him I would be get an abortion. I told him no. There was no way I could go through that again. He broke up with me. I thought about my other options but ultimately decided to keep the baby. For almost my entire pregnancy, he tried to emotionally blackmail me into getting rid of our son. (Things are quite different now though and he is an amazing father.)
But, my point is, if a man isn’t going to make me have an abortion there is also no way that if he wanted a child and I DID opt for an abortion that he was going to make my body go through ten months of physical and emotional changes just for him to take the child.
Post # 38
I’m pro-choice, and I think that the choice is ALWAYS the woman’s choice. It’s her body! I don’t believe he should be charged with murder, but I do think he should definitely be charged with something! He slipped this woman drugs for pete’s sake! The effects of which could have caused her plenty of physical & emotional pain!
For those people saying if a guy doesn’t want children, he shouldn’t have to pay childsupport; I’m wondering how many more chilidren will become a burden to society, if such a policy went into place? Seriously, if daddy isn’t coughing up some money to take care of these kids someone will have to help the mom, if she can’t afford to take care of the kid herself. We’ll be spending more on medicaid, food stamps, housing programs, TANF, and the list goes on. . . If the guy doesn’t want to pay childsupport, then he shouldn’t get someone knocked up. The only choice he has is to wear a condom or not. If he chooses not to, then he should deal with the consequences, not play victim!
Post # 39
I think a man and woman should have to sign a contract before they enter into sexual relations stating what the outcome of pregnancy would be and all contingencies. Such as, if Jane and John want to have sex, and Jane does not know what she wants to do in the event of pregnancy, John can sign a contract stating that in the event of pregnancy, due to his request that the pregnancy be aborted, he would waive his parental rights and not pay child support.
I’ve been told this would be a “mood killer.” But I always had the discussion that I would keep the baby before having sex with someone, because I think they should know. I’m on birth control and always used condoms but there is still a small chance everything could go wrong, and I think PRIOR to it going wrong is the time for informed decisions to be made vis a vis whether or not to engage in sexual intercourse and potentially get into that situation.
Post # 40
@NaijaPuertoDorian: A man made an unwanted change to her body. I don’t know if I see it as murder, but I do see it as being akin to rape.
Post # 41
@kris325: Kris, I have two children that I made a very clear choice to give birth to. If I had to go though pregnancy when it wasn’t my choice, it would feel… honestly I can’t imagine the kind of pain that would cause. Mentally, its unimaginable. You can talk about the men and their rights all day long and I understand to a point. At some point though, they will never, ever know what it is like to have their body go through what women go through to have a child. To that point, no, no woman should have to allow someone else to decide what she is truly willing to go through.
Post # 42
I said this on the other thread but will say it again, while exspecting total abstenince (the only 100% way to avoid unintended children) for people who dont want kids is unrealistic, I firmly believe you need to be on the same page about what you and your partner would do with an unintentional pregnancy, BEFORE there is a positive pee stick. I do kind of find it crap if a woman wants to get rid of a pregncy she can with no input from the father but if the father doesnt want to be a dad, he has no say and gets stuck paying for a child he doesnt want. Because that is so super good for a child’s psyche. I think of a woman decides to have a child knowing her partner doesnt want it, she should be prepared to do it alone.
Post # 43
@mousepeach: +1. I couldn’t agree more. It takes 2 people to make a baby and it should take 2 people to make the choice. If the woman decides to have the baby without the man’s “consent” than he should have the ability to sign over his parental rights and not have to pay child support.
I am pro choice, but I don’t think everything should always favour the woman. If she is fine with raising a baby alone and keeping the baby of a man who wants nothing to do with it, than that’s her choice. But the man should also have a choice too. Should he able to force her to have an abortion? Probably not. Should the woman be able to force him to be a father? Probably not.
Post # 44
@SincerelyShe: the only way to prevent pregnancy is abstinence, condoms aren’t fool proof. In regards to who’s going to take care of the child, if a man chooses to not work or work under the table, the state will still have to pay millions out in aid. Even if he does, if the man is poor they will still be aiding those kids. We as women, as sick as it sounds, have an opt out. While abortion is a private choice, When a pregnancy results in a child, the child is a public entity, the state will do what’s best for the child, making sure a man provides for the child. you can’t have your cake and eat it too. “I want a baby but he has to pay for it”. That’s absurd to me, a man should not be able to affect a woman’s private choice, a woman’s private choice should not have to affect that man. however, in light of how the law is written, a man will be responsible if a woman gets pregnant and chooses to have a child. That needs to be taught in sex Ed, maybe everyone will be more careful
Post # 45
I am a lawyer, and I like to think of myself as informed on abortion related policies (and criminal law, though not in Florida- as we’ve seen a lot lately, things seem to be a bit off there). I cannot see how the murder charge can stick. I cannot read the article on my phone, but as others said, it opens a very dangerous door to allow a fetus to be treated like a breathing human. I can think of lots of possible charges, but not murder of the fetus.
And yes, until scientists develop an incubator that can support a fetus outside the woman’s body (which I would love to see someday!), she gets to decide. Once a child is born, if that child requires some sort of transplant to save her life, the law does not require the father to provide that- even if he’s a perfect match, the child would die without it, and the transplant would have no long term risk to the father. As long as a fetus cannot live without the mother, it’s the woman’s decision.
Post # 46
Plus, we’re saying that we as a nation ethically agree that women, because they bear the children, are solely repsonsible for children. That only promotes our culture of shaming women for their sexuality.
i don’t think this is true. We as women can now choose whether or not to become a mother. That choice should not go without consequence, if a man does not want a child why should he be forced to care for one. When you make the choice to have a child regardless of your partners input, you take full responsibility. How is this shaming a woman’s sexuality, expecting her to abide by a choice she made? It’s one thing if a man just wakes up and decides he doesn’t want to be dad to a 5 year old, but if from jump he told the woman no? It takes 2 to tango yes, but all power is in the woman’s hands.