Post # 93
I think public shaming is ok if it’s a logical and equal punishment, aka it “fits the crime.” In this case it sounds ok (minus the facebooking.) If your kid mouths off to you and you dress them up in a onesie, not ok.
Post # 94
@VegasSukie: I believe in the form of punishment depends on the crime, and the child in question. Some children only respond to spanking, others simply learn if talked to. Public shaming may be considered if the child has not responded to other forms of discipline, but I don’t think it’s for everyone.
Post # 95
I don’t remember what kind of method my mother used but I KNEW when I was in trouble. Public shaming was never involved though. It didn’t have to go that far to discipline me i guess, parents and teachers calling me out on my behavior was enough and I felt ashamed enoughSo i know that Good old physical method was used to me and my siblings.
i have no idea how I would discipline our future childten!!!
Post # 96
I think what you put your daughter through was very appropriate. I agree with your reasoning that she learned not only shame, but disappointment and forgiveness. She also learned to never put a shame on her mother like that (if you were also there to witness and apologize )
Post # 97
I didn’t vote because I think it really depends on the child and the severity of the situation.
My parents were big fans of the “we’re very disappointed in you” approach to discipline. Unfortunately, it wasn’t very well suited to either me or my sister. I was a super sensitive child (still am) so I took them being disappointed in me when I was naughty and just internalised it to the point where I felt they were disappointed when I got an A instead of an A+, when my bed wasn’t made, when I slept in, when it was a Tuesday, etc. My sister, on the other hand, has incredibly high self-esteem and legitimately does not care if she disappoints, annoys or upsets anyone. So if my parents said they were disappointed in her behaviour, instead of feeling shamed, she’d shrug and go “well, that’s your problem” and just keep doing it.
Obviously you don’t have the benefit of hindsight when you’re parenting, but if I was my parents, I would have chosen an approach that helped me develop some self-esteem and made my sister realise that the world didn’t revolve around her. We’re both in our 20s now and still have exactly the same issues we did as children because they weren’t addressed.
Post # 98
@VegasSukie: Here’s my view– parents need to set expectations of behavior clearly, consistantly, and regularly from a young age. If kids don’t meet those expectations (such as saying please and thank you, chewing with your mouth closed, whatever), they should be corrected. If my child/nephew/neice told me to open the door from across the room, I would say that “Lukey, that is not how you talk to another person, why don’t you try again” and my butt would stay planted in my seat until it was in a form of a question and contained the word please. I would do it if there were just the two of us or if it was a house full of people. Would the kid be embarassed at getting called out in front of grandma and aunt Kathryn, absolutely, but I am embarassed he would think it is okay to talk to me that way and it was a gentle reminder instad of a repremand.
As far as the incident in question, I would not do that. I feel like it is cruel and that it teaches the wrong lesson. First of all, I bet the clothes she was forced to wear were a lot worse than the clothes the girl she bullied wore. I bet the girl who was bullied felt bad because she didn’t think her clothes were that bad. I called a lot of attention to the girl for how much she changed, instead of what a brat she was. If it were my child, we would have had a long discussion where she explained to me how she though it was okay to treat another person that way and how she was going to rectify the situation. She would be writing a letter of appology to the girl and would lose privledges. I would not make her the target of bullying just to prove the point– it actually reinforces the idea that bullying is okay and expected. Keeping her home from the dance is enough of a public punishment.
Post # 99
My 4 year old cousin is very very bad. Bad attitude. She used to be worse. Used to curse, give the middle finger. She had terrible 3’s instead of 2’s. She is a bit calmer now. But she used to pinch me when she was mad, and I always pinched her back. She’d pull my hair, and (not hard cause of course I know, my strengths and she is a little girl) I’d pull her hair back. I always told her, the bad things she does to me,, I’ll do it right back. And she doesn’t do those things to me anymore, because she knows how it feels, and it hurts. Of course these are little things. Bigger things she will learn from her parents. Sometimes I think giving them a taste of their own medicine is what they need.
Post # 100
I read the article a couple of days ago, and I have to say that I am all for that style of parenting. There is nothing wrong with what the parents did, in my opinion. In fact, the child probably learned her lesson better than if they had just taken away her phone/computer privelages/etc.
The only negative I can see here is that some children have to wear those clothes daily, so what is considered ‘punishment’ for that one child is daily life for another.
Though this is not always the best or most effective mode of punishment, it seemed to prove its point with this child.
Post # 101
Yeah, but think about what you’re teaching that kid – that they can get away with doing anything, at least once. I mean down the line that simply won’t work – what if they steal something, or punch their brother in the face, or whatever?
Parents are responsible for finding the teaching moment in most situations – not simply punishing the child without any explanation. Spanking the kid, or exposing them to their OWN humiliation doesn’t teach them anything except to be afraid of consequences.
Putting that kid in thrift store clothes will only humiliate her and show her that bullying is not only EXPECTED (“haha, look at the clothes she’s wearing how lame! etc etc”) but ACCEPTABLE (“I will be humiliated if I wear this instead of that to school”). This fuels the culture of bullying in schools, and when lots of parents think/parent this way, it becomes the norm.
Ultimately, this approach will only make her feel like crap, and it will make her unpredictably fear the parents’ response. I suppose if you WANT your kid to fear your unpredictability, that’s fine, but if you want to teach your kids skills they can draw on for the rest of their lives…not so much.
Interesting, though is some instances saddening, thread.
Post # 102
I get what you’re saying, but of course I’ve had in depth conversations with her about why it’s not right to hurt someone. And that one day if she does something mean, somebody could do it right back. And like I said, she doesn’t do those things to me anymore. To be quite honest, she doesn’t have much discipline in her life, which always bugged me. And I’m not one for babying kids in this day and age with the rough world we live in. So I feel my “don’t do do others what you don’t want done to you” approach helped a bit. Her grandmother is the one who really steps in and helps with the bigger issues.
Post # 103
This thread has been very interesting to read through so far.
Initially, I thought the punishment for the young lady in the article was appropriate. I thought it made her empathize with her victim and understand WHY what she did was wrong. That being said, I didn’t give the mother putting it up on Facebook a second thought until PPs pointed out that the FB posts will last forever. I know I would not like evidence of the mistakes I made as a child haunting me forever on public forums so I do agree that publishing it on FB was a no-no.
That being said, I do think the punishment was appropriate for the crime and it, with the exception of it being on FB forever, will not permanently damage the child. As far as spanking, I was spanked (more like beat) A LOT as a child. I was very defiant and my mother did not believe in or have time to sit down and talk to me about why what I did was wrong every time I did something wrong. She was single mother raising her kids without help from anyone. She felt the only way to get through to me was the way her mother got through to her. Did the beatings help? Yes and no. They didn’t necessarily prevent me from doing other bad things but they did keep me somewhat fearful/respectful of my mother. I know many Bees will not agree that fearing your parent is a good thing or equivalent to respect, but when I see kids today and how they talk back to their parents and even threaten them with things like CPS, I can’t help but wonder if instilling a little fear into kids today wouldn’t help our current state of affairs (i.e. – kids bullying each other to death, having no fear of pregnancy because the grandparents will just raise the babies, etc.).
While I agree that my communication when it comes to conflict resolution and/or feelings of anger might be better had my mother talked to me about my actions rather than beat me for them, I did not suffer so tremendously from the beatings that I couldn’t grow up and live a healthy, productive adult life. When it comes to my own furture kids, I will spank (not beat) as a last resort but it will be a resort. Of course I will try other methods first (i.e. talking, shaming, etc.) but I will never take spanking completely off the table.
Post # 104
See this is another interesting side to this thread.
i think we all must remember that the reason we have the beliefs we do, and to some degree the personality we do – docile, defiant, etc – is because we have been irrevocably shaped by the parenting we received. Now as adults, we blindly defend those practices, sometimes, it seems, without a lot of thought or common sense behind it.
I notice that the people who have been spanked/beat think it’s acceptable and helped them learn respect, etc. They usually are the people who are lounder, more aggressive in general and have tended to be bullies – at least those I know who have admitted it.
The people who were raised in a less aggressive manner – at least those who I knew how they grew up – tend to be more thoughtful, quieter and more articulate, sometimes introverted. And they also tend towards non-physical parenting practices. And yet we all forget how those early practices that we received shape what we think will “work” best because it worked for them.
I think, overall, we should not raise our children to think they are always special snowflakes that can do no wrong, but they also should never, ever be hit or humiliated. Neither practice is based in common sense or thoughtfulness – the first child might well grow up with a sense of entitlement, and the second will think that humiliation or physical contact is an appropriate part of conflict resolution. Neither approch is very thoughtful, in my opinion.
Well at least you’re trying – good that you and her grandmother are making the effort!
Post # 105
I will agree that I am definitely louder and more aggressive than many of my peers, however, I think that’s more due to the fact that I was raised by a strong, independent woman that came from a loud, aggressive family (loud and aggressive aren’t necessarily bad traits TO ME). The punishment methods used in my upbringing didn’t prevent me from being thoughtful, articulate (that one kind of insulted me…just because I was beat doesn’t mean I can’t form a proper sentence) or even introverted at times. The same mother that beat me when I was bad also praised me when I was good and encouraged me to be a better person in all aspects of life. Truth be told, the kids I see today being raised on the “time out” and “talk it out” punishment methods seem pretty darn loud, inarticulate and aggressive to me (could be that sense of entitlement you touched upon).
That being said, I do agree that people tend to accept methods that were used on them growing up, especially if they feel they grew up without enduring the permanent physical and emotional scars many “experts” claim these kids will inevitably endure. I believe it’s the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mentality. It could also be cultural. The bottom line is many different methods (corporal or not) can be effective when used appropriately and the right context.
Post # 106
Research and evidence. Base decisions on nothing else. These indicate that natural and logical consequences are most effective, and best for the child.
People overdo it with “I can never do anything that might be unpleasant for the child” but, for example, if a child hits someone on the bus, the child does not need to be humiliated in front of the entire bus. Apologizing to the person he hit is quite sufficient. It’s quite public, and already embarrassing enough. Making the child apologize to everyone is simply humiliation, in and of itself, as a form of punishment. This is not a consequence, and it is not discipline. It is vindictive, and it is both harmful and counter-productive. You are not teaching the child the importance of being considerate and polite, nor are you teaching him about how his or her behaviour affects others. All that teaches the child is that, when you get caught, you get punished, and that it’s ok to be mean to people when they do something that offends you.
Humiliation is sometimes a by-product of an appropriate consequence – for example, if your teenager does not honour his or her curfew, and ends up telling friends that he/she isn’t allowed to go to the next party, because he/she has lost his/her parents’ trust, that’s embarrassing. But the humiliation should never become an active part, or a specific goal, of the disciplinary action. That’s simply harmful, and only breeds resentment, and probably contradicts many things you are trying to teach your child about how to be a good and kind person.
Post # 107
Yes! I agree your last paragraph and think that that is thoughtful and empathetic approach.
I apologize if I insulted you – did not mean to imply that a person cannot be articulate if they were hit as a child, and perhaps my wording suggested this. However I think that when children are hit they aren’t using language or thought, both of which are more developed with less aggressive parenting styles. That can most definitely impact a child’s ability to articulate both his/her thoughts and feelings.
My mother is a strong, independent woman herself. I do not think that aggression correlates to strength and independence – rather, they help build an ASSERTIVE child, not an aggressive one.
Good thoughtful replies here on the Bee! I definitely appreciate the respectful conversations.