(Closed) Question for the Socially Conservative Bees Out There (or anyone else)

posted 8 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 3
Member
613 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: May 2009

good question.  im confused about this too.  if your faith teaches that same-sex marriage is sinful, why does that involve people outside your church?  its one thing if your priest wont marry 2 women.  seems totally different that some states refuse to….  isnt that a civil rights violation?

Post # 4
Member
2695 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: February 2008

lilyfaith – good question.  I have always wondered the same thing.  Legalizing gay marriage would never require churches to approve of gay marriage.  So it seems like the religious side could continue to do as it pleases, while allowing equality of legal rights to everyone.  Same way a church doesn’t have to marry people who live together before marriage – but the state sure has to!

Post # 5
Member
14186 posts
Honey Beekeeper
  • Wedding: June 2009

From what I understand, a lot of Christians are taught to not let society stray from “moral Christian values” and that they are obligated to basically steer others back in the right direction. It’s how tolerance is viewed also. My one friend states adamantly that Christians don’t have to be tolerant–God wants us all to be Christians and love Him so it’s her “job” to not just “put up” with “bad” things because it affects everybody. When I told her how I didn’t appreciate my dad lecturing me about God, she told me he had “every right” to do so if he felt I was straying. There is a lot of pressure to impose their own personal, Christian values onto non-Christians in an attempt to somehow guide them to the light or something.

I’m not explaining it well, but that’s what she said when we’d talked about this. Also this discussion went into the whole “separation of church and state” and she firmly believed we shoudl be a Christian nation and there should be no separation fo church and state. A lot of people feel like if God was in school, we would be better off.

That is her perspective and I know a lot of people feel that way, particularly in the US. The churches here teach you to be advocates for your friends and neighbors, to guide (aka recruit them) to God and help them out. They are lost and it is a Christians’ job to convert non-Christians to God. So by voting FOR gay marriage, they’re basically doing exactly what they’re told NOT to do–allowing “immoral” things to occur in society. And she says things like “what if gay marriage IS allowed? Then they can raise children” (heaven forbid) and she thinks that kids with two mommies or daddies just get so messed up that gay parents shouldn’t be allowed to have kids. But, she’s never really been outside the midwest…me, coming from California, I realize there is a lot more of a positive force for alternative lifestyles and it really isn’t as big of a deal or as scandelous as it is here in the midwest.

Essentially I see it as a way of pushing Christian morals onto others (even if they aren’t Christian) and I can’t get on board with that. But that is what they are SUPPOSED to do I guess. It’s why my dad has these VERY strong need to always lecture me about God. He can’t live with himself if he isn’t proactive about it, even if he drives me nuts by not shutting up. This *may* be an extreme viewpoint (i really don’t know) but it’s what I see and have been told of in my neck of the woods. AKA The Midwest. AKA The Bible Belt. Oh and people just don’t “like” the idea and think it’s “gross” (particularly a lot of men? Man on man homophobia is a big deal) and just don’t like the idea of it, so they vote against it. Again, not my personal beliefs but what I’ve deduced from living here.

Post # 6
Member
4123 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: October 2010

This is so complicated to answer! There were only a few of us that mentioned that, and I think I was the last one to do so, i.e. I feel like I need to respond even though I know I’m of a VERY different thought process of most bee’s. Hopefully knowing that I have over 1000 normal people sounding posts people won’t totally hate me.

I want to add a disclaimer that this is really really complicated and I don’t have the time to write the dissertation required to full explain my position.

-I’m for human person. That starts at conception and ends at their NATURAL death.  Everyone deserves to be loved and have love.

-I’m for loving all, supporting all, and human rights.

-I believe that not doing something or being friends with someone or in some way holding sexuality against someone is not right or Christ-like.

-I think that all people, regardless of marriage or single etc.. should be able to designate people who can visit them in the hospital or make critical life decisions in case of emergency. This goes for other legal/civil aspects as well.

-I think that everyone deserves love and respect.

-I am not convinced that “homosexuality” is “natural” *don’t kill me, I haven’t seen evidence proof enough, and I don’t want to turn this thread into a “let’s convince KLP” thing*

-I am of the belief that men and women were created in a way that fits together properly and that procreation is just as fundamental to “marriage” as union and relationship.

-I think that there is a reason for the natural togetherness of male and female anatomy and it’s that way for a reason regardless of who your God is or why/how we were created

-I think that the lack of ability to naturally reproduce without 3rd party assistance is the greatest hurdle to my acceptance of homosexuality as a “normal” relationship. 

-I think 2 people of the same sex can raise a normal human just like a single mother or father can, but I also think that the family unit with male and female who “loved” a child into being is the better formation… but not that it can’t happen other ways… 

-I think marriage is inherently and historically religion based and it wasn’t always about “civil liberties” if you really go back in time. According to my Christian background, it is a “Covenant” not a “contract.”

-Although I’m not yet convinced at it’s “naturalness” I don’t see how we can stop a “civil union” in the eyes of the state, however, most homosexual couples state that this is not acceptable unless full “marriage” is granted and accepted at any level and in any church.

-I’m concerned about legal recourse towards churches who do not accept or validate homosexual marriage

This is a very shallow and in-complete list.  One I’ll be honest I don’t really wish to share because I know I’m about to jump into a lions den… so… um… ya… that’s part of it?

ack, I’m fearfully going to hit submit now…

Post # 7
Member
2006 posts
Buzzing bee

@KLP: I actually really like how you answered it. Do I agree with half of what you said? nope. But I really respect the way in which you expressed your opinion and the reasoning behind it. Normally I hate when people give the “religious” answer to why they oppose something. But you backed up your opinions with solid religious viewpoints, not just “because I’m Catholic.” I can respect that πŸ™‚

Post # 9
Member
2186 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: September 2010

@KLP – you pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. i can almost say “ditto”

for me, i have nothing against gays wanting to spend the rest of their life with someone. i have no problem with them wanting to raise children, visit their significant other in the hospital, or any of the other “civil” rights that come with being someone’s legal life partner.

however i do have a problem with gay marriage because to me marriage is a covenant, a sacrement, before God.

i am all for gay civil unions, but against gay marriage… dunno if that makes sense, but its basically what i believe to be the defininition of marriage in of itself is something ordained by God, not something that the state or government has anything to do with.

as i stated in another post, the acceptance of the church for gay marriage goes against the teachings that they have. thats like for someone to learn that the sky is blue, God tells you the sky is blue, but wait… someone wants to say its not exactly blue but ehhh kinda aqua. similar but different. and you have to decide whether you are going to go with what you were taught and believe from God, or someone’s interpretation of what you should believe.

i have no idea if this makes sense to anyone but *shrugs* i tried πŸ™‚ *cringing as i hit submit*

Post # 10
Member
11325 posts
Sugar Beekeeper
  • Wedding: February 2011

@klp- this is not meant as an attack at all but i’ve heard similar arguments a LOT and there are a few things i really don’t understand about it.. maybe enlighten me?

1- what about people who CAN’T have children? Are they not supposed to marry because they’re incapable of reproducing?

2- what about people who don’t want to have kids? Are they sinning because they choose not to have kids? 

3- how many kids is the ‘right’ number? does 1 count? or do you have to go the duggar-route?

4- do you not accept the other purposes of sex like intimacy? 

5- if homosexual is unnatural, how come lots of other animals in the animal kingdom practice it?

 

ETA: @lilyfaith– JINX YOU OWE ME A COKE πŸ˜‰ 

Post # 11
Member
4385 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: May 2011

@KLP – Very well written. You wrote the thoughts that I couldn’t find a way to express. To that I say, Ditto πŸ™‚

Post # 14
Member
2186 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: September 2010

@lilyfaith – just to answer one of the things you will probably ask me too:

for couples who marry who cant or dont want children – personally i dont like children (if you have seen some of my posts you prob already know this LOL) and i dont want any, neither does my FH. I do take precautions to not have kids, but with that said, as i will be married, if God sees fit to bless me with pregnancy, i will take on that burden (or blessing HA!) because i believe that is what God chose for me.

thats a personal choice, and a choice that some might not choose but from my teachings i have to accept that as my choice.

as for couples who CANT have children – there are many ways – even ways in the Bible that speak of how men and women can be fathers and mothers without actually bearing a child. it doesnt make their marrige any less important or sacred. I know many couples who cannot have children who instead are mothers and fathers in their own rite to friends, family members and their community.

ultimately i think God does what is best for us, and while we may not know why things happen i have faith that things happen for a reason.

 

Post # 15
Member
2513 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: December 2009

@KLP – I definately couldn’t have broken down all my thoughts/views and stated them as factually and eloquently as you. I guess I’ve just never really been in a situation where I had to list out things in order to justify my beliefs. You did a great job with that! πŸ™‚

Post # 16
Member
162 posts
Blushing bee
  • Wedding: March 2012 - Marie Gabrielle

Well, I think eveyone can think what they want, as long as they don’t force it on others.  For instance – that well-known phrase “If you don’t believe in gay marriage, then don’t have one.”

For me, I am a Christian, and I also full-on believe in gay rights and gay marriage.  Some churches will marry gay couples, others won’t.  For me, legally, gay couples should be allowed to marry.  Churches can make their own decision because we live in a free society and all faiths have many different permutations.  For instance, I’m not Catholic, so I will never be allowed to marry in a Catholic church, if my fiance were Catholic and I wasn’t planning to convert.  Many Christian churches DO conduct gay wedding ceremonies.  I think some people forget that, according to the Bible, the only directive is that you “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”.  The End.  Much as many human beings would like to add conditions onto that.

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