(Closed) So Disappointed in the US Supreme Court's Ruling…

posted 6 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 137
Member
2346 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: November 1999

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Car7yn44:  +a billion. My husbands insulin sure isn’t free.

Post # 138
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2196 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: March 2014

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FutureDrAtkins:  which is why it’s sad that there isn’t a measure of universal health care like there is here in Australia and in many other countries. Not that absolutely everything is covered but much is subsidised at the least. I once remember reading – and crying over – someone dying of appendicitis because they couldn’t afford the operation and the hospital refused to proceed. In the 21st century!

Post # 139
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7976 posts
Bumble Beekeeper
  • Wedding: July 2013 - UK

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FutureDrAtkins:  This site has taught me so much about American society. I honestly was so ignorant before I joined. I remember when I started here, I wrote a pissed off post about how people thought it was OK to be extremely rude to Christians and pass legislation preventing the public display of iconography etc, but didn’t dare criticise other religious groups. At the time, I got a load of comments from pissed off bees which I really didn’t understand at all… they used words like “persecution” and linked me to an article about early Christianity and how the persecution of Christians under the Romans was largely a historical myth. It was a very interesting article actually, but I had absolutely no idea what it had to do with the fact I was sick of strangers in pubs attempting to convert me to militant atheism whenever they saw I was wearing a cross. Then a load of people seemed to assume that I was anti-Islamic, for some reason, when I spent much of my life living in a Muslim country, and have happily attended Islamic prayers etc, which was the custom there. Someone else mentioned birth control, and I had no clue WTF that had to do with anything either. Birth control just isn’t even an issue here… you can get it for free, anonymously, in schools. Abortion comes up as a political topic now and again, but it’s not a huge thing, or a political platform for anyone.

It took me a long time to understand that, for example, persecution politics is central to right wing Christianity in America. Or that there wasn’t even mandatory religious education in the USA, leaving children really confused about other faiths, customs, and beliefs. Or that there seems to be a lot of conflict between Christians and Muslims in the US. Or that US groups opposed birth control. I mean, I knew that abortion was a big deal in the US, but birth control? It’s all so weird to me…

Post # 140
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2909 posts
Sugar bee

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Rachel631:  I was under the impression that the morning after pill does NOT cause abortions. I am pretty sure that it prevents conception by delaying the release of an egg, so there’s never a fertilized egg at all.

Post # 141
Member
94 posts
Worker bee

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goingtotherooftopoflove:  as an American I’m unable to get my head around how health insurance is tied to employment. It’s absolutely ridiculous. I currently buy my own health insurance as I just got out of school, and starting this year, for the first time in my LIFE, I have pregnancy coverage and no copays for my BC. I couldn’t afford the pregnancy rider until this year when it was made mandatory in my plan via the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare. It feels so reliving to know that if anything happens (though it shouldn’t because I’m taking BC but things happen) the insurance can’t refuse to pay for pregnancy expenses.

In general, the state of healthcare and the insurance industry in the US is atrocious.

Post # 142
Member
670 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: October 2014

this ruling is a pandora’s box opening for sure . . .

to quote some key points from Justice Ginsburg’s dissent on the decision:

  • “The exemption sought by Hobby Lobby and Conestoga would…deny legions of women who do not hold their employers’ beliefs access to contraceptive coverage”
  • “Religious organizations exist to foster the interests of persons subscribing to the same religious faith. Not so of for-profit corporations. Workers who sustain the operations of those corporations commonly are not drawn from one religious community.”
  • “Any decision to use contraceptives made by a woman covered under Hobby Lobby’s or Conestoga’s plan will not be propelled by the Government, it will be the woman’s autonomous choice, informed by the physician she consults.”
  • “It bears note in this regard that the cost of an IUD is nearly equivalent to a month’s full-time pay for workers earning the minimum wage.”
  • “Would the exemption…extend to employers with religiously grounded objections to blood transfusions (Jehovah’s Witnesses); antidepressants (Scientologists); medications derived from pigs, including anesthesia, intravenous fluids, and pills coated with gelatin (certain Muslims, Jews, and Hindus); and vaccinations[?]…Not much help there for the lower courts bound by today’s decision.”
  • “Approving some religious claims while deeming others unworthy of accommodation could be ‘perceived as favoring one religion over another,’ the very ‘risk the [Constitution’s] Establishment Clause was designed to preclude.”
  • “The court, I fear, has ventured into a minefield.”

This is a disaster in the making, we the people will be paying for this years to come.

Post # 143
Member
7976 posts
Bumble Beekeeper
  • Wedding: July 2013 - UK

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Jijitattoo:  Ah, right. I was under the impression that they induced the menstrual period. Well, you learn something new every day. I remember that there was a bit of moral outrage here when they were introduced over the counter in pharmacies and became accessible to children of any age (a long time ago now… more than 10 years ago). In that case, I wonder what all the fuss is about?

I should also say that I only know one person who has ever used those pills… the rest of us all went on the pill in our mid-teens, and that was that. I didn’t even go on it for contraceptive purposes, initially… it was to regulate my acne. That was a pretty common reason for girls my age to go on the pill at the time. Don’t know if it still is.

Post # 144
Member
186 posts
Blushing bee
  • Wedding: July 2014

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Car7yn44:  Also, here is an analogy that I think will make some of my objections to your position more understandable. You are arguing here that women should only use birth control if they can afford the entire cost of it, regardless of what they already pay for their insurance policies. Their employers are not responsible for providing their female employees insurance policies that cover it. I’m going to substitute the words “birth control” for “transportation” and the word “employer” for “taxpayer.” You say you rode the bus for 4 years, so you’ve used this service before.

Scenario 1:

You: I have a job, but I can’t walk to it. It also doesn’t pay much, so I can’t afford a car. 

Me (the taxpayer): Tough cookie. If you can’t afford to get to your job, then find a better job that pays more.

You: But I can’t just quit my job, I need to pay my bills to support myself and my family.

Me: Take personal responsibility for your transportation; I don’t have to provide it for you.

 

Scenario 2

You: Look, I’ve bought a bus pass. I can pay for this service.

Me (the taxpayer): Yeah…no. That bus pass doesn’t cover a fraction of what this service actually costs. If you want to ride the bus, then you need to pay for the entire cost of it, which includes the bus driver’s salary, the gas for the bus, and the regular maintenance of the bus, plus taxes. That will be $270,000 for the year, please.

You: But I can’t afford anything besides this bus pass.

Me: Tough cookie. Take personal responsibility for your choices. Find a better job.

 

The only reason you were able to ride a bus for four years was because the taxpaying citizens of your city helped subsidize the cost of it for you.

But why did your city subsidize the cost of transportation for you? First, they believed that it was your right to have affordable transportation. Even if you weren’t making much money, and not paying much in taxes, and not investing much in the local economy, they still thought it would be better to help you get to work than to simply tell you to find another job. This makes a lot of economic sense; it is much better to put a little money up front to help people work than to provide no money and have astronomically more of your citizens unemployed, potentially homeless and desperate. Providing the cost of birth control in insurance policies also makes a lot of economic sense; it is significantly cheaper to provide birth control for women than to provide increased welfare services, increased Medicaid costs and increased educational/child care services for children born to mothers who can’t provide for them. 

I bring this up because you have beneffited from an ideological generosity and sense of social responsibility that you are now unwilling to extend to other women.

 

 

Post # 145
Member
389 posts
Helper bee

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FutureDrAtkins:  I was raised Catholic and am planning a Catholic Mass wedding (the love for traditions dies hard), but I personally have many issues with the Church and its treatment of women and homosexuals and all the theology around why birth control is evil (there’s many of us out there! The American Bishops just like to pretend we all don’t exist, which hey, easy since women don’t get any authority in the Church).  But for your Catholic employer’s insurance to exempt contraception but then not offer any pre-natal healtcare is appalling.  How is that consistent with a sanctity of life attitude?  Ugh.

And I agree with everything you’ve written in this thread.  Ruth Bader Ginsberg’s dissent is perfect and outlines everything that is wrong with this decision.  I have never been so personally insulted as to be told by a member of the Supreme Court (Alito’s majority opinion) that contraception and women’s health is a special separate issue from every other health issue that has religios implications.  As Cecile Richards said, “This decisions enshrines second-class citizenship to 52& of the population.”

  • This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by  blankspace.
Post # 146
Member
2294 posts
Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: September 2013

The morning after pill does not terminate a pregnancy.  No birth control pill terminates a pregnancy.  The MAP delays the release of the egg and thins the lining of the uterine wall so the egg cannot implant.  If the egg has already implanted, the MAP will likely have no effect.  The IUD also thins the lining of the uterine wall, preventing implantation.  There is nothing that actively terminates a pregnancy.

For me, this decision isn’t so much about Hobby Lobby, but it’s about the future implications that it holds.  What’s next?  We always take one step forward and two steps backwards it seems….

Post # 147
Member
213 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: October 2014

This is the reason I refuse to set foot near a Hobby Lobby and when I pass them in the car I always hope that the fleas from a 1000 camels infest the CEO’s armpits for a hundred years. I am a crafter and the local HL is the nearest place but I’d rather drive the extra time it takes to get to Joann’s or Michael’s than to support that awful place.

 

I’m sorry but when did companies become people…and to have their say over what their workers do or don’t do?

Post # 148
Member
389 posts
Helper bee

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beerandcupcakes:  It’s not allowing me to edit now, so sorry for the typos. Rage apparently erases my internal spell check.

Post # 149
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147 posts
Blushing bee
  • Wedding: October 2014

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Rachel631:  The morning after pill was available only to people 17 and older until recently (last year I believe) when they lifted the age restriction. 

First, I was unaware that any insurances covered the morning after pill to begin with so I guess I was a little surprised to hear this was considered one of the forms of “birth control” that HL is no longer covering. 

Second, I don’t know how many times this needs to be said…the morning after pill (and other forms of BC) do NOT prevent pregnancy if the egg has already been fertilized. That was a big hot button when the MAP became available to all ages. I guess it depends how strict your religious definition of preventing pregnancy is to how offended you can get by this in particular, but the facts need to be stated again. 

I don’t have much else to offer that hasn’t already been said. I think this is definitely a slippery slope and I am not looking forward to seeing how this turns out. 

Post # 150
Member
7976 posts
Bumble Beekeeper
  • Wedding: July 2013 - UK

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Audrey2_sings:  This is rather off topic, but I do know that some people believe that pregnancy begins at fertilisation, rather than implantation… in this case, the IUD would be considered an abortificant. In fact, I know people who do not use IUDs for precisely this reason… they use nexaplon implants etc instead.

That aside, even if these people do believe this, the logical solution would be not to cover IUDs, but to cover everything else. I’m not entirely sure what one’s religion has to do with the pill, for example (?). Seems like a half arsed attempt to save some money to me… couldn’t they be sued under corporate responsibility legislation? Or do you not have corporate responsibility legislation in the US?

Post # 151
Member
2843 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: May 2014

 

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AirLaw:  My SIL HATES the pregnancy coverage mandate.  She doesn’t need it. She had a cheap policy without it.  Now that it is required, her policy tripled, and she ended up going on my brother’s insurance.  Their health insurance premiums went up astronomically as part of the Obamacare wealth (I use the term loosely…they ARE NOT wealthy at all and this is a huge hardship for them) redistribution plan.  Anyway, my point is, all these “rights” usually hurt people as well as help others.  Depends on which side you fall….

  • This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by  NavyBee.

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