(Closed) Spinoff: Anti-abortion Bees – Where do you draw the moral/ethical line?

posted 9 years ago in Wellness
Post # 47
Member
575 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: August 2012

I am anti-abortion in all cases except when the mother will die (then that’s her decision to make if her baby will live). If I had a tubal pregnancy where my baby and I would both die unless I got him/her out of me; I would get the baby out before it ruptured. In that case I don’t really consider it abortion though.

Post # 48
Member
742 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: December 2012

Just a point of semantics but abortion is not murder until the fetus reaches the age at which it is granted “personhood”. Murder is a legal term not an emotive one though it often gets used as such. A woman who deliberately kills a born baby (here at least) gets charged with infanticide. Not murder.

I’m not saying infanticide or any deliberate killing are not as bad as murder, that’s up to you, i’m just saying they aren’t the same as murder. 

 

I’m on the fence about abortion, prolifers who squawk “abortion is MURDER and murder is ILLEGAL” don’t irritate me because they think differently to me, thry irritate me because they are using legal terminology incorrectly in order to deliberately obfuscate an emotive arguement into a legal one and that’s really bad academic form. 

I studied Philosophy, Theology, Ethics and Law at University and we had to debate this issue what felt like constantly. It forces you to really tear apart your own beliefs and get to the core of them when your lecturer doesn’t allow anything other than perfectly formed logic patterns. The end result is usually the same and answers the OP rather well IMO. Some people can hold beliefs that do not appear to logically conect and seem discongrous. That’s usually because they are. While they might try to create a logical link we can’t ignore that people are not inherently logical we are emotive, which allows us to hold slightly mismatched ideas and believe in exceptions.

Post # 49
Member
9478 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper
  • Wedding: October 2012

I can understand the rape thing, but I am a product of rape.  My mother wanted to have an abortion because it was a family member (drugged and drunk).  I am thankful my grandmother talked her out of it saying they would love me no matter what.  She and another friend said it wasn’t my fault what happened.  I wouldn’t be here today (which is ironically my 24th birthday) if they didn’t convince her otherwise.  My grandmoom is a hardcore Catholic.  She would have thrown my mother out if she had an abortion (which she did later on in life).  I refuse to talk to her about that situation. I think she was stupid to be messing around with a married man to begin with.  

I can understand a risk of death for both the baby and mother.  It’s a shame it happens though.  If only things were perfect.

Post # 50
Member
3216 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: February 2012

View original reply
@Kate0558:  You’re going to have to rephrase your statement for me to understand.  People often abort their children because testing reveals disability and the parents decide the child won’t have a good quality of life.  I’m saying I wouldn’t do this. 

I don’t think anything is ever as simple as “an eye for an eye.” But we’ll have to just disagree on that one.

Post # 52
Member
995 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: August 2012

I’m not anti-abortion so I can’t answer the question but I would like to add that I know a girl who was the product of rape—and was emotionally and physically abused by her mother because of it–and finally kicked out onto the street at 13 to fend for herself because her mother couldn’t stand to see the face of her rapist on her child. 

 

Her mother was white and the rapist was black—her daughter looked more African than Caucasian

Obviously her mother was wrong, but she DID have the choice and she made it……

 

In this girl’s mother’s case, HER mother was very anti-abortion and pushed her to keep the baby–therefore she didn’t feel like it was her decision and resented her daughter

15 years later they still don’t speak

 

So idk, it’s kind of flip to say that raped women should be forced to carry the fetus when you don’t really know what it’s like to be in that woman’s shoes, OR her child’s

Post # 53
Member
149 posts
Blushing bee
  • Wedding: August 2012

I am pro-choice, but I also do not make a distinction about when it is ok to terminate and when it is not.  That’s why I believe in a woman’s right to choose.  It’s not up to anyone to say that because someone was raped she should be able to abort or to say that a woman can’t abort because of the fetus’ gender.  It’s an abortion, period.  

I completely respect the OP’s opinion that abortion is not ok no matter what the circumstance.  I understand why some people feel that way, it’s just not my personal opinion.  There is just too much of a gray area when you ask for a woman’s reason to terminate.  Like, is it ok to terminate based on gender if you’re from a particular culture and you would be killed if you had a girl? But it’s not ok to terminate based on gender because a woman has 4 boys and doesn’t want to have another?

I bring up the gender debate only because it was the first time I had ever counseled a patient on an abortion and she told me it was because of gender.  I talked to my medical director about it because my initial instinct was to be uncomfortable with it.  Her response was, “why are we going to judge her because she was honest about her reason?”  That really stuck with me and I realized then that I guess I was judging some women for their decision.  Why should I judge someone for being honest or be more ok with a woman’s decision because I can sympathize?  

Post # 58
Member
4334 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: October 2011

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@Atalanta:  “Anti-abortion”, while not completely offensive, is not a preferred term because it emphasizes that you are against something. When you call someone “anti” something that many people don’t think is at all bad, then they look bad. For example, “anti-war” is ok b/c no one is PRO-war. Those who aren’t completely “anti-war” would just say war is a necessary evil. Many pro-baby-death people (which I insist on calling you since you won’t acknowledge that it seems unfair to call one side “anti-abortion” and the other side a completely positive term chosen by them.) Anyhow, (in contrast to the “anti-war” term,) many pro-baby-death people think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with abortion, so to call someone anti-abortion makes them look bad.

See? Terminology matters.

And I am offended by your referring to it as “pro-life B.S.” Please apologize, to respect all of the other PRO-LIFE bees in this thread.

I didn’t come here to argue, only to try and make a point, so I won’t be commenting on this thread anymore.

View original reply
@sylvia.riggle:  the page you linked to mentions eyelids… I consider that close enough to a face!

Post # 59
Member
995 posts
Busy bee
  • Wedding: August 2012

View original reply
@kybride2012:  That’s not an accurate illustration–at 8 weeks the fetus is 1/2 inch long at most–and has the beginnings of mouth, nose, ear canals, etc.–but not really a face

I think there is some confusion with the weeks–a woman can be 8 weeks pregnant but the fetus is only 6 weeks old–because they count the date of her last period–which is about 2 weeks before she actually got pregnant 

 

here’s an actual picture to clarify–this is a fetus that is 5 weeks  old–but the mother was 7 weeks pregnant 

It measures 10 milimeters 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tubal_Pregnancy_with_embryo.jpg

 

A picture of a 6 week old fetus–so mother was 8 weeks pregnant 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Human_Embryo.JPG

 

And here is a picture of a fetus that is 7 weeks old, so the mother was 9 weeks pregnant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:9-Week_Human_Embryo_from_Ectopic_Pregnancy.jpg

 

I could see if  you made the distinction that life begins with the heartbeat or something (9 weeks)–but the face thing is a little vague

Post # 60
Member
3771 posts
Honey bee
  • Wedding: October 2012

I’m against abortion in any way shape or form. To me the world would be a better place without abortions. HOWEVER I do not think making abortion illegal is going to fix the problem. So i guess in that sense i’m pro-choice??? I really hate all this jargon and wish people would say what they mean. You are either pro-abortion (meaning you’d have an abortion if you had to choose) or you are anti-abortion (meaning morally you could never choose to have an abortionn).     I am all for the better education of women. I feel there are so many young girls out there that feel like their ONLY option is abortion because of the people around them and the negative stigma of being pregnant. I also think that it is rediculous that when i was 17 years old, I could go get an abortion whenever the hell I felt like it… HOWEVER I could not get my ears pierced, I could not get a tattoo, I could not rent a hotel room or a car, or do pretty much ANYTHING without my parents consent. 

Post # 61
Member
2825 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: April 2012

I’m pro-choice, so my opinion doesn’t matter… I’ve never had to make the decision to have an abortion or not, under most circumstances I don’t think I would… but in the event of rape, I can’t say for certain what I would do.  I’m pro-choice because I just don’t feel comfortable making that decision for EVERY WOMAN who would be put in the situation to MAKE that decision… I don’t want to tell a woman who’s been raped that she HAS to carry that child to term, I don’t want to tell a woman who could DIE if she carried a baby to term that she has to… I just don’t think that is my decision to make, let alone the government making it for us.

As for the debate, I really don’t think anyone can say that a woman who has been raped should be forced to keep the baby unless they have been raped and ended up pregnant from it (god forbid, and my heart breaks for anyone who has been in that position!).  Unless you’ve been there, you honestly don’t know what you would do.

And for the PP who said there is a “morning after pill” in the event of rape… WELL, it doesn’t always work… or sometimes it only works a little and will leave the child disabled… what then? You did everything right to prevent pregnancy from an event where you DID NOT concent but it didn’t work and now the child might be disabled ontop of everything else… Should the mother have to carry that child now?

Or what if the rapist gave the mother hiv/aids, and having that child will mean that the child has a good chance of having hiv/aids as well, do you still have that baby?

My point is that there is a lot of grey area for both sides, which is why there is no right or wrong answer, it is a personal decision that only each one of us can make for ourselves.  And I’m grateful that we have that right.

The topic ‘Spinoff: Anti-abortion Bees – Where do you draw the moral/ethical line?’ is closed to new replies.

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