Post # 107
This is basically what I asked in one of the gay marriage threads. Why does it matter to you? Do you think you’re going to hell if you don’t ‘save’ people? Do you think you’re God’s messenger on earth? I seriously want to know. Most anti-choice supporters are anti-choice due to religion (not all, of course, but most). Great. Your religion says abortion is prohibited. So don’t get one. Why does it matter if someone else does it? I’d seriously love to know.
On a side note, it is pretty upsetting to think that my governement is actually debating a law based upon Chrisitian rules. I’m not Christian, and the laws of my religion with regards to abortion differ greatly from those of Christian religions. I’m not interested in Christian law, it has nothing to do with me or my life, and my community doesnt try to force our religious law on anyone of a different religion (in fact, its quite the opposite – we don’t encourage new ‘members’…if you want to convert, great, but we don’t seek anyone out and we certainly don’t push our rules on anyone). Seriously…who do ‘you’ (thats an general ‘you’…it represents the general ‘you’ trying to push this on everyone) think you are?
Post # 108
Personally I think what it comes down to for me is that I believe abortion is a form of violence. It’s similar to the death penalty in that it’s legally permitted violence and people talk about it as regrettable… but sometimes necessary. Was it President Clinton or Secretary Clinton who used to talk about wanting abortion to be “safe, legal and rare”?
I feel this is the root of a lot of issues in our society. We frequently reach for the violent solution to our problems be they personal, national, international, racial or economic. Because we think it’s easier, more neat and tidy. It preserves the status quo. It requires less growth and risk than other paths that take us away from our comfort zone. Or even if we recognize the virtue of choosing non-violence, we don’t want to outlaw the violent solution (be it torture, the death penalty, abortion, war) we want to keep it as an option “just in case” we need it. I’m afraid I would call that cowardice as much as it hurts to describe my own culture that way.
To be frank I don’t think they did us women any favors with Roe v Wade any more than scientists did the human race a favor when they invented the bomb (Hiroshima, also supposedly “regrettable but necessary”). We have all this potential for greatness and I think when we choose violence it just kills the greatness in us.
I can’t imagine what it is to conceive a child through rape but I have known a woman who did. She parented through an adoption plan. She considered her keeping the baby to be her “answer” to her abuser (family member). It was her way of overcoming him, choosing love where he chose hate, respect where he chose disrespect. I don’t like either of the terms Pro-Life or Anti-Abortion, I consider myself a Respect Life person.
I do hope that one day non-violence is enshrined in our laws in every aspect, in the meantime I want to support all the courageous women who have the integrity and love it takes to choose non-violence. You are amazing and you are heroes to your children and to me!
Post # 110
umm, you’re comparing Rose vs Wade to dropping the ATOM BOMB…..seriously……
I don’t know what to say, because the rules of the forum mean I have to bite my tongue and not insult you….
1st of all, it’s insulting that you would compare allowing women to have safe and legal abortions to something that killed thousands of innocent civilians…insulting to both pro-choicers AND anyone connected to that travesty
But 2nd, as a certified science dork, I find it insulting that you would compare a scientific breakthrough that allowed us to harness the power of the sun to a law that gave women control over their own bodies. They are nothing alike.
Not to mention the people that invented it are NOT the same people who decided to use it—-it was originally intended as a last ditch resort if Germany did not surrender–you know the people who were responsible for the Holocaust….
That’s why Albert Einstein–a jew who escaped Nazi Germany–decided to participate in the project
But I’m getting off topic, look I get your whole peace love speel….the real world doesn’t always work out that way
I find it hard to believe that anti-abortionists would feel the same way if THEIR 13yo daughter was pregnant because of a violent gang rape
Post # 111
ugh nevermind. Don’t need to get sucked into another one of these threads.
Post # 112
It’s OT but my point about the bomb is that while their motivation was understandable it was a completely dumbass move on the part of the scientists who decided to try to weaponize their knowledge.
Because while it solved the immediate problem (Hitler, etc) it also created a cascade of other problems including proliferation to any future “hitlers” we may have to deal with. Maybe even worse “hitlers”… hard to imagine anyone worse, but humans are capable of anything.
The genocide that took Germany about a decade can now be accomplished in minutes thanks to their efforts. So I would say they didn’t shoot themselves in the foot, they shot themselves in the face with that one.
I apologize if I insulted you but hopefully you can understand I’m not trying to insult anyone, I’m just sharing how I feel about this. I realize that many people believe that creating a non-violent society is kind of a hippie lala dream not possible in “the real world,” but the fact is every day there are people in the real world who choose a different path, sometimes at great personal cost. I certainly intend to teach any daughter (or son) to base all their decision-making on love and acceptance and not on fear.
So while I would never make such a decision FOR her, I would hope my daughter would follow her heart, and that I have helped her grow her heart as big as it possibly could be…
I almost wonder if it would be more of a powerful statement if abortion remained legal but the abortion rate fell to 0% and no woman ever again considered exercising her legal rights… or if capital punishment stayed on the books but no jury ever again handed down a death sentence. Where we still have the option to choose violence but as a society and as individuals we show that we abhor it by rejecting it. Perhaps that’s an area of compromise. It’s the safe, legal and rare argument again but it has its own power.
Post # 113
I do agree with your stance on violence. I can’t gage where you are on the issue specifically except that you, like many others (all, I would say) don’t want to see abortions happening–legal or not.
I’d be interested to hear, from you as well as other bees, how we should prevent abortions from happening.
For my part, I don’t believe that removal of the right to have an abortion is a way to stop them–in fact, I think unregulated and unprofessional abortions would increase the level of violence, both on the unborn AND on pregnant women, not reduce it. But I do think that adequate sex education (and education in general), access to quality prenatal care and healthcare in general, and addressing the needs of the poor in general would go a long way.
I think that what offends me most in all the latest measures to prevent women from having abortions (the “you’re pregnant before you’re pregnant” law in Arizona, the transvaginal ultrasound, the personhood amendments etc.) is that so many of them seem premised on the idea that a woman isn’t capable of understanding what she is doing or making the decision. I’ve known women from all walks of life who have had abortions, teens to middle-aged, all races, all economic statuses (I used to volunteer in a clinic) and none of them were at all lazy or carefree about the decision. The assumption that for some reason women aren’t aware of what the procedure involves or that they’re doing it out of irresponsibility is really insulting to me.
Post # 115
I think better birth control support and options would help decrease the number of abortions. It just makes sense to me.
Post # 116
[comment moderated for personal attack]
Hey I’m not the one who dragged the atom bomb into it! And thank you for sharing your experience–I know it’s hard when other people are like HOW COULD YOU BLAME A BABYYYYYY–when they’ve never been there
Post # 117
We focous on the mother so much, rightly so I might add, but I could never bring a child into the world where it would be abused,( and my ex had some more serious issues that I found out after the fact where he might have done more than hit a child…) , their is the option I suppose of adoption, however you still get the same jugement. Your giving up your baby you terrible person.and even adoption is not a garuntee that the child will be SAFE let alone happy. No one knows what rape and abuse looks like, and for me the most selfish thing would be tO bring a child in to that.
Post # 118
I don’t understand -why are you posting such unkind things to me?? I don’t think there’s a need to engage in personal attacks – let’s treat each other with respect, it makes for a much better discussion. I assure you that I have a grip on reality.
One good development we’ve seen is that the abortion rate has come well down from its peak in the 90s – how to accelerate/continue that trend? Well I’m sure it’s probably a variety of factors. To be honest I think a big change has been greater social acceptance of single parents and children born out of wedlock. I don’t think a single parent situation is always the “ideal” either, but I know a lot of great single moms (and dads) and ironically I think in a more “conservative” society, many of those children would never have seen the light of day – because of the shaming and total lack of support their parents would have been dealing with.
Whereas now, a woman facing an unplanned pregnancy has more role models of single parents to show her that it can be done and it doesn’t have to mean the end of your dreams.
So many terminations are financially driven – women who just can’t see how they are going to support the child and themselves. Rather than being empowering, the choice to abort is sort of the ultimate symbol of their disempowerment in our economy. They might want to keep their baby but they feel like they can’t. No support from the father, the belief that they will have to interrupt their education, it all adds up.
Or they fear it’s going to stop them in their careers. So I think more economic support for women (and more protection for mothers in the workplace) would help big time. Right now you can’t get anywhere trying to expand programs like Medicaid or subsidized day care, no state $$$ available, but there are some AMAZING organizations like Maggie’s Place that I would like to see more of.
To be clear, I do think our current abortion laws are unjust. I think where pro-lifers make a mistake is not realizing that you have to change hearts before you can change laws. Great reform movements (civil rights and so forth) were successful because people became convinced things were wrong and had to change. And most of the politiicans who call themselves pro-life just have no interest in helping the mom prior to getting pregnant or helping her and the baby afterward. I call them Pro-Carrying-To-Term because that’s really all they are.
Post # 119
I just wanted to say that at first I was unhappy with your response and then I actually *thought* about it and realized that you really delivered a well-thought out response based on your beliefs. I had initially responded and then deleted it because you are definitely entitled to your opinion and while I 100% disagree with you, I respect your opinion 🙂 I am only saying this because I feel like you are being insulted when you have been nothing but respectful in the delivery of your opinions on the matter.
Post # 120
I don’t really know if I fully identify with either side, but if I was forced to choose I guess I’d say pro-life. Generally I’m not in favor of elective abortions because I AM in favor of accountability. If you are choosing to have sex you are accepting the risk you could get pregnant- I don’t care if you’re rocking birth control akin to Fort Knox, if you’re over the age of 12 you should know it’s possible. I think if people don’t think they would want a child that resulted from their transgressions then they should keep the nickel between their knees- but that’s just me.
Because I am a big fan of accountability that is also why I am not one to protest women who have been raped getting abortions- they had no say in what happened to them and they didn’t get to weigh any risks because decisions were made for them. Again, this is why I’m hesitant to say I’m pro-life. I’d like to think I’m more “Respect-Life” (Thanks @Magdalena!) with a dash of “Put Your Big Girl Panties On and Own up to your Life Choices”.
I’m glad the majority of Bees are discussing this maturely.
Post # 121
I’m pro-life (anti-abortion) and other then serious, life threatening complications, I don’t believe in having abortions… other then the possible grey area of rape. I agree with the prior posters who have stated that the difference is that most abortions are by people who willingly consented and chose to have sex, whereas a rape victim didn’t get that choice. As for what I would do in this situation? I wasn’t as sure when I was younger, but now that I’ve been dealing with a mc and complications with ttc, I believe that I would value the life created in me rather then focus on how that life came to be and that I would keep the baby and love it with every bit of love I have to give.