SPINOFF: Prenups… preYUP or preNOPE

posted 1 year ago in Money
  • poll: What’s your experience with prenups?
    I was presented with one and signed it : (5 votes)
    5 %
    I was presented with one and declined to sign : (2 votes)
    2 %
    I gave one to SO and he/she signed : (6 votes)
    6 %
    I gave one to SO and he/she didn’t sign : (0 votes)
    No prenup was discussed : (68 votes)
    66 %
    Other : (22 votes)
    21 %
  • Post # 16
    Member
    357 posts
    Helper bee

    Your poll assumes that prenups are unilateral, and no choice presented for mutually discussed prenups.

    We discuss finances almost everyday (personal finance, stock market) but every quarter we review goals etc. Prenups was discussed, we are reviewing state laws and meeting with financial advisor and tax advisor to understand the impacts and how we can maximize our tax-free contributions, and protect our assets. We make about the same amount, but he has more debt than I do, while I have a more substantial nest egg (I was able to save more because I am debt-free), so prenup is definitely in our books. However, in previous Bee thread about prenup costs, legal fees may eat up to as much as $2-5K per side (his/hers). He is saying this is like prepaying for divorce lawyer costs… We have yet to speak to lawyers, but we will look into other options like drawing up specific wills or setting up trusts with specific instructions. I think that might be just as costly. 

    What do bees think? What is a reasonable cost for legal fees to set up prenups? Also, how much money/debt do you need to have in order to justify having a prenup?

    I think having assets over 250K and/or debt over 100K, i’d like to see a prenup.

    Post # 17
    Member
    9580 posts
    Buzzing Beekeeper
    • Wedding: July 2016

    somathemagical :  the word hate was strong, it comes across as if I’m mad at you. I’m not.. just frustrated that people never even consider both sides may agree state law doesn’t fit them.

    Maybe just “we both wanted one” as an option. But I clicked other and that’s fine too.

    Also for the record I do agree with pps it doesnt make sense to consider unless you have a decent amount of assets to protect. The whole thing cost us about $5-6k to have written up and we had zero disagreements, obviously (though his lawyer cost us an extra $500 or so because he threw in some clauses without asking Darling Husband that we then had to have removed.. so we paid him for his time making the mistake AND his time fixing it *grumble grumble*).  Anyway point is.. don’t spend $6k to protect $6k lol.

    Post # 19
    Member
    1757 posts
    Buzzing bee
    • Wedding: September 2018

    Yeah, I have no assets and I live with a permanent visa in a foreign country (different divorce laws etc). But my partner has some larger assets, and is self employed with a well established business he’s built the last 20 years. We both have children from other relationships. For us it would be especially messy to divorce. It’ll be much less messy and stressfull for us both if we ascertain the value of his assets in advance and make agreements about our pensions and his business now. 

    Nobody plans on getting divorced, but I don’t want either of us to feel like the other is being unfair if we should ever end our marriage. Also, the laws here are tricky for those married to foreigners.  

    Let’s be honest: we aren’t always out best selves in the face of loss and disappointment such as divorce is. 

    We are drawing up a pre-nup together with a family lawyer, though we might not get it done on time for the wedding. (you can do it anytime here)  Nonetheless we are in agreement that it makes sense for us. 

    I voted “other”

    Post # 21
    Member
    1757 posts
    Buzzing bee
    • Wedding: September 2018

    amanda1988 :  I hear you with the costs! For us, it is worth it, but still it’s a lot for an eventuality. I think we will be paying around 3-4 grand, but we won’t know for sure until we get there. 

    So. much. money. 🙁 

    Post # 22
    Member
    9580 posts
    Buzzing Beekeeper
    • Wedding: July 2016

    malayna :  a $350k difference in net worth is significant.  In 20 years with an average 5% interest rate that’s worth just shy of a million…  I’d lay out some ground rules now. How he’ll pay his debt off (since income once you’re married is joint), whether capital gains and dividends on your 250k is common property or private.  How you will reimburse the community for taxes on those capital gains and dividends, if they belong to you, what will happen if you use some of your 250k as a down payment on a house.

    Prepaying divorce lawyer? Sure, that’s one way to look at it. It also means you’re negotiating the terms of any potential divorce while you’re in love, generous, level headed, and no kids are involved.  Divorce can be ugly as fuck: Id rather sort out details when I can talk with my then-fiance without wanting to bash his face in, as I assume I’d feel if we ever got a divorce.  (Because I can’t imagine ever falling out of love with him, so I have to assume it’d only happen cus someone fucked up lol)

    Post # 23
    Member
    9580 posts
    Buzzing Beekeeper
    • Wedding: July 2016

    Shesaidyes :  I’m sure your lawyer told you this but even if you guys 100% agree the lawyer you’re seeing can legally only represent one of you and you need to find a second lawyer for the other party before you sign.

    Darling Husband and I saw my lawyer together the first meeting or two but once she had a draft she told him he had to find a different lawyer because she couldn’t represent us both as it’d be a conflict of interest.  It matters if you want that prenup to actually be worth a damn if you ever do divorce.

    Post # 24
    Member
    260 posts
    Helper bee
    • Wedding: July 2008

    I’m in the PreYUP camp….although I wasn’t presented one and I didn’t ask for one, I can definitely see in some circumstances it is worthwhile to have.  Case in point:  Say you have a joint stake in a business/asset with family members….those are things I think are worthwhile protecting.  I’d be miffed though if he had asked for a pre-nup if we had entered marriage financially even, but he was in a career path that outearned me later on. 

     

    Post # 25
    Member
    5109 posts
    Bee Keeper
    • Wedding: December 2014

    It was never discussed. Neither of us had any money or assets when we married nor do we anticipate any significant inheritances from family. We couldn’t have even afforded the lawyer to draw up a prenup.

    Post # 26
    Member
    1757 posts
    Buzzing bee
    • Wedding: September 2018

    amanda1988 :  luckily in Germany it’s not legally necessary. But because I want to make sure we are making a fair agreement I have a close friend who practices family law who as agreed to look over it (I really wish he would do the whole thing for us, but bummer, he didn’t want to) 

    Post # 27
    Member
    9580 posts
    Buzzing Beekeeper
    • Wedding: July 2016

    Shesaidyes :  oh interesting.  Well that’s convenient then! That’ll definitely save on costs. My lawyers fees (who did the bulk of the work) was roughly 4k so yeah I think you’re in the right ballpark.

    Do keep in mind prenup conditions are considered at the time of divorce and at the location of the divorce. If there is a chance the two of you would relocate to somewhere where the fact you didn’t have separate lawyers would void the prenup it may be worth considering getting separate representation anyway.. e.g. I doubt my prenup would hold up if we moved to, and then got divorced in, a country where women could not legally own property.  I just have no intentions of moving to such a place, heh.

    Post # 28
    Member
    2527 posts
    Sugar bee
    • Wedding: September 2018

    We didn’t need one (make the same approx yearly, don’t have any inheritance or anything that would merit one) but I absolutely would sign one if we had a reason.

    Post # 29
    Member
    1757 posts
    Buzzing bee
    • Wedding: September 2018

    amanda1988 :  hahahah! me neither!

    Yeah, a part of the ageement is that the basis for divorce in German law (we live in Germany. Will not be moving to the US as I am neutralizing to German citizenship in the next years most likely) It’s so sensible here, as in, so many things (which would be unfair and detrimental for one partner) can’t leaggaly be included or excluded from a prenup (like if children are involved etc) but the things we have to sort are things regarding pensions and his business and the bit about German law being the divorce proceedings. All in all I feel confident we’ll have a fair agreement, but you never know.

    We have a saying here: lawyers are like dentists, you only know if they did good work after you’re done and you’ve paid. 😉 lol

    Post # 30
    Member
    357 posts
    Helper bee

    amanda1988 :  by golly a million dollars is quite a lot now that you made me think about it that way. The debt is exactly why I considered prenup in the first place because once we’re married, I’d like to consider us to be one unit and it makes no sense to pay interest when we have assets. We could consolidate our risks and investments, BUT in event of divorce, I’d like to recapture my contribution to pre-marital debts. 

    I think capital gains and taxes on long term investments should be shared when they become realized. But that the capital, and unrealized gains should remain with the sole owner of account (pre marriage). Pretax retirement accounts should remain with owner, so long as both parties are working/contributing to their own retirement accounts. I think the prenup should state what happens to retirement accounts should one person loses job/decides to stay at home.

    Q: Can/should we create separate joint post tax investment accounts post marriage?  

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