Post # 137
@chercee: Our pastor addressed this in our pre marital counseling and actually told us the history of how the Bible was translated. He said it has nothing to do with actual submission in that the wife is a doormat, but that when translating the old text there was no actual verb in that passage. So instead they literally plugged in the verb from the past paragraph, which happened to be submit, into that passage. He made sure to explain to us that we are both equal parts of the marriage and relationship, and that in no way shape or form meant that I was to obey, and be a doormat. I think it’s really important to discuss this, and also to discuss your roles, before marriage, so that everything is out on the table. My husband and I sat down and discussed who would be in charge of what roles in the household (i stay at home so I take care of the housework) and he takes care of supporting us. We also discussed our short term plans to grow ourselves, so that we can both be happy and independent, and therefore be even happier together. I think its all about communication. Sometimes he asks me for “permission” to go out with his friends after work or to make a purchase, and I sometimes laugh, but I really appreciate that he includes me in his decisions. It leaves no surprises and no animosity.
Unfortunately the Bible has been and will continue to be molded and adapted to fit one’s own convenience, and preferences. I think whatever is consensual, whatever you both agree on, is right for your personal marriage. However, I thought I would point out the fact that our pastor was from a very traditional southern old school church, and made it quite clear that I am in no way obligated, based on the Bible language, to submit in today’s terms to my husband, and he is in no way obligated to try to use it to order me around.
Post # 139
Okay 🙂 I see your point, but as a pp said, I would hate to support an individual choice that, if done a larger scale, holds women back.
A lot of us are saying, “Oh, I’d never submit to my husband.” We should be greatful to the women who fought hard to give us that choice!
I didn’t know that about Sikhism though. Will need to look into it, sounds cool!
Post # 140
“But I am trying to draw the distinction that “inferior” means less power and less responsibility. It does not mean less important, less valuable, or less worthwhile.”
Right, it means less power and less responsibility. Why would one adult need to give up power to another adult? Why would that adult also choose less responsibility in their partnership? That is the dynamic between a guardian and a child, not life partners.
They used to say white and black people were “separate but equal.” Well we know how that played out in practice.
So much of this is about that perfect wife/Virgin Mary thing. You get so many props for being a docile, loving, passive wife. All of those adjectives are so niiice and the Church community gives you so many brownie points. But it seems easy to relinquish and give your husband the penis trump card.
Struggling to compromise makes your marriage stronger. It’s like a three-legged race. You have to get your bodies in sync. Sure it’s easier to let one person “lead” but it’s more interesting to co-direct.
Post # 141
Can someone please define “spritual leader” in the context that people have been referring to it here?
Post # 142
Are you asking why Christians are hateful? Or people in general.
If you are talking about christans then my answer is that they aren’t true followers of Christ.
Other people, the enemy is quite powerful.
Post # 143
Why? Because God said so. I choose not to follow the One who created me.
Post # 144
My husband is Jewish, and I’m Lutheran. Also, his highest degree is a B.A. and I’m on track to earn my doctorate in a little less than 2 years from now. The goal is for me to be the primary breadwinner, and DH would love to be a stay-at-home dad (or possibly work part-time, either evenings or weekends).
Although I grew up in a Christian household, my mother did not ‘submit’ to my father. In terms of religious education, I will be the religious head-of-household as our children will be raised Lutheran (DH was never bar mitzvahed, but I was confirmed so that was a pretty easy choice for the two of us to make).
So to answer your question, that’s a definite no.
Post # 146
+1 summed it right up for me, thanks.
Post # 147
+1. We are members of the catholic faith and in no way does our church promote submission.
To be honest, the word sickens me.
I don’t know where we would be if dh made ALL the big decisions (or even handled the bills lol)
Post # 148
I certainly understand why this concept would be difficult to comprehend and even quite troubling to you and many others who do not necessarily identify yourselves as Bible-believing Christians.
There really is NO WAY on earth that I would be willing to go along with my husband having the final say on those few issues where we cannot agree, UNLESS I TRULY BELIEVE that, by doing so, I actually am submitting to GOD and to the Biblical process that God has established for these situations.
I am not submitting to my husband on these occasions because I think he is right (if I did, I wouldn’t be disagreeing with him in the first place.) I am not submitting to my husband on these occasions because I necessarily trust his desired way of handling something that I strongly want to handle in a different manner (if I did, we wouldn’t be having the conflict at all.) In these instances, I ultimately am not submitting to the human being to whom I am married and with whom I am disagreeing. Rather, I ultimately am submitting to God and obeying His commands. I know HE (God) is trustworthy and faithful and that He (God) will take care of me and my situation if I will do what His Word has instructed me to do, even if I don’t particulary like what it has to say about something.
Over the 30+ years I have been walking with God as an adult, I have learned I can never go wrong by obeying God. When I obey God, HE becomes responsible for the results of my obedience. When I refuse to submit to and obey God, then I become responsible for the results of my disobedience.
What I have found in the four years that I have been married is that when I do things God’s way, I get God’s results. When I insist on doing things my own way (i.e. in a manner that goes against what God’s Word has said on a particular matter), I usually do not like the results.
Post # 149
- Wedding: December 2010 - Savannah, GA
I think a lot of people misinterpret the idea of being wives submissive to their husbands. They think of it as being unequal, and that’s not what it means at all. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ so loved the Church. This command levels the playing field between husbands and wives. Christ did not hold himself above the church, but rather served the church.
I submit to my husband, but I have no problem telling him when he’s treating me like a subordinate. If he’s treating me like a subordinate, then he isn’t loving me the way he should be. Usually it only takes me pointing it out him to make him change his behavior. And fortunately, I don’t have to do it very often at all.
Kind of a funny story… There was one time when my husband tried to pull rank on me when we were working on the house and disagreeing about how something should be done. He tried to do what he did in the Army and pointed out that he’s a Master Sergent. I looked him straight in the eye and pointed out that I’m a civilian and my taxes pay his salary, so I outrank him. A tense situation was suddenly lightened, and we both found ourselves laughing.
Post # 150
How convenient that a book written by men telling women to submit to men also tells women that submitting to men actually means that they are submitting to the one true god. “Don’t worry about handing all your decision making and leadership power over. Trust me, all that power just goes to god! Nothing to see here, move along, move along!”
Just blows my mind that this is not a self-evident abuse of power passed down through the ages. Blows. My. Mind.
Post # 151
What about female ministers? Aren’t they spiritual leaders? At my old church our pastor was a woman, and she seemed to know what she was talking about. Everyone loved her. (I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m genuinely curious about your opinion/what the rules are for this)
SO and I are an equal partnership. If anything, I’d say I get my way more often…but that’s just because I’m a bit more stubborn than he is. We’re both really indecisive though, so making decisions can be really challenging sometimes!