US Bees: Party or Candidate that Aligns with Christian Values?

posted 2 months ago in Christian
Post # 61
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1229 posts
Bumble bee

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LilliV :  I met a woman once in a clinic who was getting an abortion because her birth control failed and she said “I have 3 kids and I’m FINALLY getting off welfare and able to support us. If I have another baby we’ll be back on welfare with no hope of getting off”. 

This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Things like better maternity leave, more affordable childcare, etc. may very well have enabled her to have that fourth child without going back on welfare. The republican party opposes those things though. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH IS. You can’t say abortion is the greatest evil in the land and then oppose policies that would prevent abortions because those policies don’t fit the “pull yourself up by the boostraps!” party line. In my mind, you have zero credibility as a pro-lifer if you’re against those types of policies.

Post # 62
Member
1229 posts
Bumble bee

One last comment on this…there are studies that have shown the rate of abortion is actually slightly lower in countries where it’s legal than in countries where it’s illegal (https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide). I am not a statitician and cant vouch for the methodology used there, but if you’re pro-life and you thought reversing roe v wade was the golden bullet in eradicating abortion once and for all – shouldn’t you be EXTREMELY DISTURBED by this research? If you believe abortion is murder and there is research that shows more abortions happen when it’s made illegal…then why is reversing roe v wade the only abortion-related legislation you care about? Why are you in favor of it at all?

You know what I’d love? A pro-life politician with some goddamn moral authenticity. Someone who said “I am not interested in reversing Roe v Wade because there is not convincing research that doing so would actually lower the rate of abortion. I’m interested in enacting policies that would actually have an impact on preventing abortions. I’d like to do x, y, and z, which would make it easier for women to choose to carry their pregnancies to term.”

Post # 63
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7470 posts
Busy Beekeeper
  • Wedding: October 2014

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LilliV :  “people have a fundamental difference of opinion in what is a “child”. No one condones killing your own living, breathing, child. Personally I don’t consider an embryo or fetus a child.”

winner winner chicken dinner. There may never be consensus on when life begins, but it was only relatively recently (since the 1980’s or so) that the embryo or fetus was given “child” status. This makes it easier to develop those rabidly passionate single-issue voters; either you’re “for” killing babies or you’re “against” killing babies, right? This also makes it easier to develop voter bases who despise each other. Who’s easier to hate than a baby killer?  The language is carefully chosen as to evoke the strongest, most polarized responses. It’s just a shame that similar energy isn’t devoted into understanding the causes and effects of unwanted pregnancies and working to reduce them overall.

Post # 65
Member
634 posts
Busy bee

I was listening to a podcast this morning about how we are undermining democracy from within by the way we are handling political disagreement. When we witness debates on television, they aren’t really designed to sway minds anymore, they are designed to envigorate your voting base. They discussed the “weak man” argument as a new version of the “straw man” argument. Essentially, one side will pull either the weakest argument, or twist an argument and then defeat it. They mentioned a speech Bush gave on deciding to go to war in Iraq. Paraphrased: “Many said that the Japanese and the Germans would never experience democracy. That is simply not true. They have. I believe it is racist to say the middle east cannot participate in democracy” (again, paraphrased). But those weren’t the real arguments against going to Iraq.

The podcast made a point that our main problem is we get our source of news on “the other side” from our own side. The descriptions of what the other side believes from our own side is often extreme and not nuanced. For example on immigration issues, the right makes the left out to want anyone and everyone to be allowed to immigrate, to want rapists and gang members admitted to the country, and wants social assistance for anyone and everyone. If that is the news you are hearing, no wonder you are supporting tough immigration policies.

Post # 66
Member
1048 posts
Bumble bee
  • Wedding: July 2013

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Overjoyed :  None of them. I hate my choices on both sides. I find Trump arrogant, obnoxious, and unhinged. But I also find the idea of abortion on demand up until the moment of birth unhinged as well. People chanting, “No borders, no walls, no USA at all” sound like idiots to me. 

I grew up poor, and slipped back into tough financial Times when I became a disabled adult, but I think many of the traditional approaches to fighting poverty, while well intentioned, don’t work.

My work for a nonprofit occasionally involved training refugees. Many had waited in camps for years to get here, and I think they greatly enrich our country. I am 100 percent behind LEGAL immigration, but I am also 100 percent against ILLEGAL immigration, so apparently that makes me a racist who hates Mexicans. 

I apparently also hate women because, yes,  I am deeply troubled by abortion and that is a factor in how I vote. I didn’t learn this aversion from evangelical preachers or deeply religious parents. The first crack in my pro-abortion mindset came when I first heard of babies surviving abortion and then when I heard of how abortion had replaced female infanticide in certain parts of the world to the point of creating imbalances in the ratio of women to men. I suddenly started to think about how I had cleansed my own language to never refer to an unborn baby as a human being and how f——- up was that? At a pro-choice rally I asked one of the leaders, if we should all have a goal to reduce the number of abortions, and her reply was no, because that would imply something is wrong with abortion.

As for Klan, Nazi, groups, I detest them, and have been told by relatives that ancestors of mine in Poland died in Auschwitz. I think the only factor that should matter in employment is how well you do the job, not race, gender or sexual orientation. And I believe everyone should have access to healthcare.

As far as politics and parties, a lot of bullshit and hypocrisy on both sides. People who are now outraged by sexual assault accusations against Cavanaugh and Trump may be to young to remember how Democrats and even feminist leaders like Gloria Steinem dismissed and discredited women who accused President Clinton.

As a Christian, I rarely discuss politics in every day life, as it seems to drive people apart. I try to be open to other people whether they agree with me or not. As for the election, I will wait until everything shakes out, and see if I can stomach voting for a major candidate or just vote third party as a protest.

 

Post # 67
Member
205 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: January 2020

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Overjoyed :  for me it is extremely important they are NOT hard core Christians for one reason only… America doesn’t have an official religion. I find it disturbing that people can validate pushing their beliefs on to  others through political policies but would be horrified if a muslim, Jewish, atheist, Scientologist, etc were to do the same.

I do not believe god or your personal religious views have a place in a modern free countries politics. That should personal and OUT of all politics. Gay marriage doesn’t force you to marry a gay person, abortion doesn’t force you to have an abortion, and so on. 

I also believe that anti abortion candidates are hypocrites because none of them mention the the United States of America is the MOST Dangerous first world country to give birth in. If they cared about mothers and babies they would be fighting this.

https://www.newsweek.com/us-most-dangerous-developed-country-give-birth-report-1044898

Post # 68
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7470 posts
Busy Beekeeper
  • Wedding: October 2014

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Anonymous1063 :  ” But I also find the idea of abortion on demand up until the moment of birth unhinged as well.”

This doesn’t happen in the US. Abortions are not being performed mere days before birth According to the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm) only 1.4% of all abortions occur after 21 weeks. Since pregnancy continues well past 21 weeks, the phrase “late term abortion” isn’t even accurate. It’s inflammatory and was created by the right wing to further the false narrative that babies are being ripped from the womb mere days before birth. The phrase “partial birth abortion” is even more inflammatory and even less accurate. 

this article looks at some of the reasons why some women may opt for an abortion after the 21st week. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-abortion-law-in-new-york-will-change-and-how-it-wont

And this article raises some particularly valid points as well: https://gen.medium.com/the-truth-about-late-term-abortion-aad93dcdbf8e:

“But here’s the truth Republicans don’t want to face: Outside of health considerations and fetal abnormalities, the reasons women are obtaining abortions past the first trimester are directly related to GOP-led efforts to curb the procedure. Most women who have abortions in the second trimester say they would have liked to end their pregnancies earlier, but cite problems with insurance coverage, geographical distance, and waiting periods—all issues created by Republican state-level laws.”

The awful truth is that abortions performed after the 21st week are frequently requested due to horrible circumstances– health risk to the mother, severe problems with the fetus– or lack of access to safe first-trimester abortion. These are all heavy, heartbreaking decisions, not whims, and a woman should have every option available to her when facing such difficult life choices. 

most states already have laws on the books to prohibit abortion for the purpose of gender selection, so that too is not really an issue in the US.

If this is one of your key points to consider when choosing how to cast your vote, please do some research to make sure you fully understand the issue. This particular issue has been distorted by the hardcore right wing in an attempt to manipulate voters, but the real facts are not hard to find.

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