(Closed) What will you argue about, until you're red in the face?

posted 8 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 212
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401 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: May 2013

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@Liss13:  Nope. Science indicates that people are biologically herbivores. Try going vegan and then eating meat or cheese after a while and see how sick it makes you.

Not the best source, but breaks it down nicely:

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

Post # 213
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348 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: June 2013

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@CountryRose:  erm…that is really just plain wrong. Have you ever studied anatomy? Humans are omnivores. 

 

By The Way…didn’t forget about my CAFO post, will get back to that maybe tomorrow, I know it will take me a while to write everything I want to say and I just haven’t had the time yet. 

Post # 214
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401 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: May 2013

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@kswiftbride:  Yes, which is why I linked to an article that explains the anatomical differences between ominvores and herbivores, and summarizes peer reveiwed medical literature to clarify why we are an herbivore according to every one of those differences. You don’t have to agree, but you do have to support your veiwpoint with equally valid sources.

Plus, it is just logical. We are not fast, compared to prey animals. We don’t have claws or offensive teeth. We have to cook our meat before we eat it. If you eat too much meat it will kill you. Any other ominvores have these issues?

Post # 215
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348 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: June 2013

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@CountryRose:  Don’t worry, when I get home I will. Pesky little thing called work gets in the way of me spending all day on the computer.  Cool 

Post # 216
Member
6511 posts
Bee Keeper
  • Wedding: September 2012

I cannot believe some of the racism on here.  Really, “these people”??? Ugh. 

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@gardenroses:  On an entirely different note, I love your euphemistic use of “bullhockey” 🙂

Post # 217
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5540 posts
Bee Keeper
  • Wedding: December 2011

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@CountryRose:  Uhh… nope. Canines and small cecums (what herbivores use to digest cellulose and have HUGE ones for) say evolution wanted us to eat both meat and plants. And the reason humans don’t have claws or fangs is because we developed big enough brains to make tools. And we (well, some proto-human ancestor) DID discover fire, which allowed us to eat meat, which allowed homo species to come out of trees and grow larger bodies and brains. The ancient human-ish ancestors that just ate plants were important but the adding calorie and protein density of meat allowed so much developement as a species. It is a luxury we now have to go back to just eating plants but ask a homo erectus what he wants to eat and the answer will be meat. (http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-erectus

Post # 218
Member
292 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: June 2013

Looking at PP I’ve see a lot of things that are pet peeves of mine but I certainely wouldn’t argue or stand my ground over.

BUT things that make me red in the face and pretty angry are:

       ~Animal Rights/welfare, this includes a bunch of topics that I won’t get into because this post would quickly turn into a rant.

        ~People who are collecting welfare who are undeserving.

        ~People with no manners.  This includes but not limited to people who never use “Please” and “Thank You”, people who interrupt you, texting or web surfing when with others i.e. out to dinner or having a face to face conversation.  General rudness or lack of respect for others around you. 

        ~Gay marriage.   I don’t believe the government has the right to tell me or anyone who I can fall in love with and marry.  I believe that gay and lesbian couples should have the same rights that I will have when I get married. 

I can go on but the meeting reminder just came up on my screen and I have to get to a conference call and being late would be rude which would be bad.

 

  

 

Post # 219
Member
401 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: May 2013

@chasesgirl: Wow, you clearly think evolution happens way faster than it does. Since, apparently, no one is going to read the research I posted before responding with their coloquial knowledge I will just post the summary conclusion here. Reorganized for those with short attention spans:

  • Saying we’re omnivores because we’re capable of eating meat is just silly. We’re capable of eating cardboard, too. And by the “capable” argument, then cats are omnivores, since nearly every commercial cat food has plant ingredients. (Check the label.) Nobody would ever make the argument that cats are omnivores based on what they’re capable of eating. But they sure make that argument for humans, enthusiastically.
  • Our so-called “canine teeth” are “canine” in name only. Other plant-eaters (like gorillas, horses, and hippos) have “canines”, and chimps, who are almost exclusively vegan, have massive canines compared to ours. (See picture below.)
  • Our early ancestors from at least four million years ago were almost exclusively vegetarian. (source, article #5)
  • Among animals, plant-eaters have the longest lifespans, and humans are certainly in that category (and yes, this was true even before modern medicine).
  • We sleep about the same amount of time as other herbivores, and less than carnivores and true omnivores.
  • The most common cause of choking deaths is eating meat. (source) Real carnivores and omnivores don’t have that problem.
  • The anatomical evidence tells us that we’re optimized for eating mostly or exclusively plant foods. The only way to come to another conclusion is to ignore the bulk of the anatomical evidence, which is what my critics do. (They either use inferior evidence, such as disputed assumptions about the prehistoric diet, or they cherry-pick the anatomical evidence while ignoring the bulk of it.)
  • Most plant-eaters eat small amounts of non-plant foods, usually insects (either intentionally or inadvertently). Critics of this article zero in on this tiny non-plant consumption as though they’ve made some sort of point. The small non-plant consumption of plant-eating animals doesn’t mean that they’re “omnivores” in the classical sense, and certainly doesn’t justify the idea that humans are adapted to a mixed diet of plant and non-plant foods.
  • “Omnivore” doesn’t mean 50% plants and 50% animals. Many of my critics consider chimpanzees to be omnivores but 95-99% of their diet is plants, and most of the rest isn’t meat, it’s termites. (see below) If humans are omnivores, then the anatomical evidence suggests that we’re the same kind: the kind that eats almost exclusively plant foods.
  • The animals most similar to us, the other primates, eat an almost exclusively vegan diet.

Post # 220
Member
5540 posts
Bee Keeper
  • Wedding: December 2011

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@CountryRose:  Uh…. not sure why you think I don’t realize human evolution took hundreds of millions of years. But anyway, I’m just not going to argue with you because apparently I have “too short an attention span” to be know what I am talking about. Go ahead in your militant veganism and I will enjoy my tasty hamburger with cheese. MMM. 

Post # 221
Member
401 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: May 2013

It did take that long: beginning far before we had tools and fire, and not lasting long enough for us to lose fangs and claws, if we had any, which we didn’t. And if you READ THE RESEARCH it cites several biological anthropologists whose research concludes that it was the introduction of starchy plant life in our diet that spurred rapid evolution, and that cultural meat eating did not come until much later. This makes sense, because our bodies are fueled with carbohydrates. You can hold onto your cognative dissonance in the face of science, biology, and anthropology… and you can be wrong.

Post # 222
Member
348 posts
Helper bee
  • Wedding: June 2013

Ok, so now that I have a few minutes, let me address some misconceptions about CAFOs. I’m going to focus on Swine because that’s what I know most about, obviously.

Gestation crates – Gestation crates are designed specifically to protect the sows from each other. Pigs can be pretty mean. When asserting their dominance they will often bite and bite hard. Dominant sows will not only injure others, but not allow them to eat or drink. Having their own space ensures that all of the pigs are safe from harm and get the exact and proper nutrition, individual attention and veterinary care to ensure their best possible health. Of course there are also pros to group housing but the Association of Swine Veterinarians recognizes both as acceptable housing practices for sows. Have you ever observed a pig in person? FYI – Sows who live in group housing and have room to move around will still wedge themselves up against the sides of their crates.

CAFO’s are strictly regulated in terms of temperature, ventilation, and biocontrol. The pigs never have to worry about being too hot, too cold, or having clean fresh air. The strict biocontol methods protect the pigs from illnesses that easily spread outside.

Manure is strictly managed to ensure that the ground is not contaminated. Sure, there are some issues with this – but think of all of the manure that would be able to contaminate the water supply if these animals were not as highly regulated. 

If I say it once I will say it one thousand times. If an animal is not happy and healthy, it will NOT make a company money. It makes no sense for people to raise animals in a way that is detremental to their health and well-being. 

And by the way, this stereotype of evil “factory farmers” who are only in it for the money…total BS. If you divide my FI’s salary by the amount of time he works, I bet it’d be below minimum wage. I can’t even tell you how many times he’s worked 12+ hour days or has gone back to the barn in the middle of the night because he’s concerned about the pigs for some reason. He has even risked his life several times for these pigs. Farmers choose their profession because they love animals and want to be their stewards. 

So let’s take a look at what would happen if we got rid of all CAFO’s and relied on the animal rearing of yester-year:

Major cutback in production = skyrocketing food prices (this includes foods that vegetarians eat, what do you think they use as fertilizer for all of the crops grown in the US?)

Unregulated practices = inconsistent food quality (again, also affects vegetarian items)

Exposing the animals to uncontrollable factors from disease to wildlife = diseases and food borne illnesses could easily be passed along to consumers, not to mention suffering for the animals.

But, you, the ARA (I’m using you as a generality, not singling anyone out) say:

“Well, the answer is obvious, we all need to just stop eating meat!”

Ok, let’s look at what would happen if everyone in our country just decided to become vegetarians:

Millions of animals would now have no “purpose”. What do you propose we do with them? Humanely kill them all? If that’s your answer then I’m not sure why you’d be against eating meat in the first place…lol.

OR, you can take the ARA stance – free them all and let them exercise their “right” to live free of human intervention.

OK, so now you have millions of animals that are now exposed to disease, harsh conditions, and predators. IDK about anyone else, but I would much rather have a pig kept under careful stewardship for its whole life before it was humanely killed to become tasty bacon than ripped apart alive by a mountain lion, or die a slow death of starvation, disease, injuries etc. etc.

And these scenarios are just about the animals. Not even getting into the effects that would have on our already collapsed economy or our ecosystems.

ETA: If you don’t want to support CAFO’s, then don’t. There’s plenty of local farmers that will sell you meat. If you don’t want to support eating meat, then don’t eat meat. There’s plenty of other options. It’s insulting to say that those of us who choose to support the meat industry and like a tasty burger or bacon don’t love animals. But, don’t cry “cruelty!” when you have no experience in agriculture or animal behavior/animal science.

Post # 223
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1789 posts
Buzzing bee

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@peasantsong:  I know alot of people do, but not every vegetarian does. I have seen MANY unhealthy vegetarians, thinking because they cut out something like red meat with cholesterol/etc they forget what it does have in it that is good, and dont balance it out.

Post # 224
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1789 posts
Buzzing bee

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@peachacid:  if you go into any Atlas/world book , under “language” in the US section it does indeed say English.

Sorry my spelling is not 100% I was typing off of my phone, which happens to be a piece of crap at the current moment, but you should be able to get my point.

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