(Closed) Who won the presidential debate?

posted 4 years ago in The Lounge
Post # 286
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Buzzing Beekeeper
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@ maymrswinks   Please let me re-phrase what I meant by “color and culture blind.”  What I meant was my parents taught me to treat people with respect and kindness regardless of their outward appearance or religious/cultural affiliation.  When you’re raised on military bases everyone is considered to be equal, there is no “minority” or “majority.”  And they taught me to require the same treatment in return.  That’s all I meant.  I didn’t mean to offend you, either.

I disagree that what Trump has said (some highly offensive things) is WORSE than what Hillary has done (she cost Americans their lives and then disrespected their families by lying to them).

Post # 287
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@ MarriedToMyWork    Speaking of LGBT rights, how do you square it that Hillary Clinton’s Foundation received donations from Saudi Arabia, while she was in office as Secretary of State, when Saudi Arabia issues the death penalty for being gay? 

They throw gay people off of high buildings just for being gay.  They stone to death women caught in the act of adultery.  They chop the hands off of thieves and behead Christians.

Women are not even allowed to have driver’s licenses in Saudi Arabia.

Yet Hillary Clinton is friends with these people, and accepts money from them.

Post # 288
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1987 posts
Buzzing bee

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@ Sunfire   There is no evidence that the Clinton Foundation received donations from Saudi Arabia while she was in office as Secretary of State.  Donald Trump’s campaign has (unsurprisingly) given no evidence to support its claims:

“The Washington Post reported that Saudi Arabia @ Sunfire to build the library. (According to the Post, the Saudis gave a similar amount to the George H.W. Bush library.)  After the library donation, the Saudis gave very little and @ Sunfire during the time Clinton was secretary of state. She stepped down in early February 2013″ [bolding mine].

“Working backward from the numbers we have in hand, it seems fairly certain that Saudi Arabia gave about $10 million in the early 2000s, well before Clinton became secretary.”

@ Sunfire

Furthermore, while I am no fan of Saudi Arabia and actively press my elected officials to continue developing technologies and additional diplomatic ties that would allow us to be less cozy with them, your assertion that the Saudis regularly throw people off buildings for being gay or execute people for being Christian is not supported by evidence:

As for Trump’s claim that these countries are throwing gay people “off of buildings,” he may be referring to the Islamic State. There is evidence that @ Sunfire  has engaged in these acts, but in Syria [bolding mine].

Executions in Saudi Arabia specifically have increased recently, but @ Sunfire , and whether are they related to homosexuality, are hard to measure.” 

@ Sunfire

Furthermore, even if Hillary Clinton accepted sacks of money personally from government ministers in Saudi Arabia (which she hasn’t), that is still not equivalent to her actively using the power she has been granted to directly target LGBTQA people, like Mike Pence has.  Furthermore, remember that I am not an unabashed fan of Hillary Clinton, as I’ve said many times.  I do not agree with all her actions, and I know that she will do things as President that I do not support.  I support her in this election because I consider a Donald Trump presidency to be a great danger.

ETA: I believe that she will do a better job of the two plausible candidates (if still a less perfect one than I would prefer) of protecting the rights and dignity of LGBTQA citizens in the USA and I believe that her diplomatic experience and knowledge mean that she is far less likely than Donald Trump to create international destabilization of the type that has historically had the effect of giving governments that do not respect the rights and dignity of women and LGBTQA individuals even more of an opportunity to consolidate their power and continue their abuses.

Post # 289
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@ MarriedToMyWork    In the unlikely event that Trump wins I don’t think LGBTQA rights will be severely impacted, I just don’t.  I hope not.  But I am not basing my vote on this one issue alone.  We have two less-than-ideal candidates, everyone will agree.  The Democrats have not done a very good job of governing in the past few years, it’s time to balance the scales.  Speaking as an unaffiliated party person here.

You cannot deny the many years of Clinton corruption, there is too much evidence.  Obama at least is a man of honor who has never done anything corrupt or illegal that I know of. 

Hillary Clinton just was caught on tape slamming Bernie supporters as being slugs who live in their parents’ basements!  I depise her.  I despise how, if she wins, she will never be the President of the entire country, she hates most Americans and she is despised by many Americans in return.  She isn’t your champion, she is only the champion for herself.  I wish it were not true.  I think our country needs a woman as President.  She is the wrong woman.

Post # 290
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1987 posts
Buzzing bee

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@ Sunfire   I have no confidence that judicial appointments made by Donald Trump would continue to do the important work of ensuring that 14th amendment equal protection, which is constantly under assault from discriminatory state-level laws and policies, remains strong.

Clinton was not insulting Sanders’s supporters.  She was describing the situation that many young people find themselves in due to the irresponsibility that led to the 2008 financial crisis.  Sanders has said that her comments are accurate and her comments reflect the feelings that many of the young people I work with have shared with me. 

@ Sunfire

@ Sunfire

For those who don’t want to click on the links, here is the a longer version of Clinton’s remarks (from the Fortune link):

“Here’s what I think is going on…There is a sense of disappointment among young people about politics, and there are a lot of different reasons for it. Some take the position that they were for President Obama and he didn’t revolutionize our country.

The poor man faced implacable hostility and got a lot done, and deserves an enormous amount of credit. But the idea that the Affordable Care Act or saving our economy were not big enough accomplishments is just bewildering to me, because I know how hard it was and what a touch and go deal it was.

A lot of them are new to politics entirely. They’re children of the Great Recession, they’re living in their parents’ basement, and they feel that they got their education, and the jobs that are available to them are not at all what they envisioned for themselves, and they don’t see much of a future…”

She’s not being condescending.  She’s being sympathetic to a generation of people who had what was available to their older siblings and parents taken away from them through no fault of their own.  Now, do I think that she’ll serve this group as well as Sanders might have–no.  But again, I believe she’ll serve them better than Donald Trump would.

Post # 291
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Buzzing Beekeeper
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@ MarriedToMyWork   We may continue to agree to disagree, I prefer not to continue debating with you. 

However, I would like to say thank you for finally speaking (writing) to me like a real person, I appreciate it.

Post # 292
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182 posts
Blushing bee

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@ MarriedToMyWork   Your last comment is the first one I can completely agree with but I am not sure if that has anything to do with your opinion or the fact that you decided to finally abandon your “airs” and come back down to earth with the rest of us. Perhaps I’m just simple minded folk. It’s interesting how earlier you said that your use of flowery (I mean intelligent) language was simply the way you speak in everyday life but now you’ve graced us with this gem that reflects a genuine human being. Did you finally exhaust your extensive vocabulary? Bless your heart.

Post # 293
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Buzzing Beekeeper
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@ snowdrops   Simple-minded folk here, too.  kiss

Post # 294
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182 posts
Blushing bee

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@ Sunfire   I do not entirely agree with all of your stances but I would just like to say kudos to you for sticking this thread out and being gracious and kind in your responses to those who have not awarded you the same courtesy. 

Post # 295
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1987 posts
Buzzing bee

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@snowdrops   Sunfire’s assertions in her posts on this page reflect claims that can be dismissed through a cursory comparison with readily available evidence and she has not chosen to contest the evidence I have provided.  Thus I do not have need for the more technical language that was necessary for me to express my thoughts on the epistemolgocial issues that were being raised on the preceding pages.  While I guess you and Sunfire have read that one post as somehow different in tone and vocabulary, it’s well within my normal range (remember, a normal distribution has tails and thus some of my posts will be slightly more technical and some slightly less than the average).  

Also, I’m an atheist, so bless my heart all you want to…it won’t do a bit of good.  But thanks for your “concern.”

PS.  Can someone explain to me how Sunfire, who has accused me–not my arguments, not my posting style at WB, but me as a total person–of being “smug” and “entitled;” has accused me of wanting to deny rights and dignity to people by preventing them from voting if they disagree with me (categorically false); and has accused me of being so closed-minded that I require people to agree with me for me to think they’re smart (to take just one easily accessible example, howsweetitis and I have disagreed before, but I am on record as saying she is smart) has treated me with any sort of kindness and courtesy?  She’s free to believe these things about me, of course–I choose to be the way that I am and I have to accept the consequences of that choice, which may include some people not liking me very much, but it doesn’t sit well with me when she does these things and also tries to claim the moral high ground of just being a nice, simple, sweet person.

Post # 296
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182 posts
Blushing bee

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@ MarriedToMyWork   I certainly didn’t mean it in the biblical sense but I’ll keep that in mind.

Post # 297
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3032 posts
Sugar bee

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Post # 298
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Buzzing Beekeeper
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@ snowdrops   Thank you!

Post # 299
Member
3032 posts
Sugar bee

  

Sunfire : I agree that even if we disagree with you we should treat you with respect.

Can I just be picky a moment?

You said, “I disagree that what Trump has said (some highly offensive things) is WORSE than what Hillary has done (she cost Americans their lives and then disrespected their families by lying to them).”

I think that we have to compare what Trump has said with what Hillary said, what Trump has done (or not done) with what Hillary has done (or not done), and check that both people are consistent in what they say and do. In short we have to treat them in the same way and hold them to the exact same standards. We also have to be careful to judge fairly in terms of what is known about each candidate, what is alleged and what is promoted by their opponents.

If Hillary took money for her foundation from Saudi Arabia and if Trump did business with Saudi Arabia and both parties knew about the country’s poor record of treatment of women then both candidates are equally culpable. Morally, the only difference might be whether they took the money to benefit others or to benefit themselves.

I have to say that the US (and the UK) do lots of business with Saudi Arabia. Some of it is technology, some of it is to do with the oil industry, and some of it is to do with the worst of all trades – the trade in arms.

Both countries do support trade with Saudi Arabia right now. Our pockets are full of dirty dollars (or in my case dirty pound coins).

http://2016.export.gov/saudiarabia/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exporting-to-saudi-arabia/doing-business-in-saudi-arabia-saudi-arabia-trade-and-export-guide

 

Some of those arms are no longer in Saudi Arabia but are being used at this very moment to blow up small children in Aleppo, Syria.

So I think you are absolutely right to question the morality of trading with Saudi Arabia, and other unpleasant and immoral regimes. But please put the spotlight fairly and squarely on both candidates and on both parties.

Post # 300
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9966 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper
  • Wedding: September 2012

Revised to delete.  I prefer not to continue arguing.  Thanks for hearing me out.  Until next time, debate #2 is coming up soon!

 

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