(Closed) "You don't know what exhausted is"

posted 4 years ago in No Kids
Post # 151
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Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: June 2014

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MarriedToMyWork :  Who’s not allowing you to have a conversation though? There’s a whole 10 pages of a conversation here.. and almost all the posters agree that tiredness is not just something that comes with motherhood. In fact I haven’t seen a single poster suggest that mothers are the most tired of all people.. so I don’t understand the complaint.

Post # 152
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3107 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: March 2016 - Surfer\'s Beach, Grand Cayman

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j_jaye :  Gotcha. Someone explained it elsewhere as encompassing all issues involving no kids including weddings, I guess they were mistaken and so was I. However it doesn’t change how I feel about this, I think there are many ways of discussing things and venting without being disrespectful to other groups. 

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MarriedToMyWork :  You are now presenting yourselves as a systematically oppressed group and I think that’s a far reach. What position of power does a mother have over a child free woman?

Judgement is placed on all women, just as you don’t want to be judged, other women such as myself don’t want to be either. I’m genuinely sorry that so many threads have been derailed, and I am aware that I have done the same here, but my intention was not to make this about me or mothers, or even to detract from the original post, but simply to express that I have tried to offer my support/own experiences a few times now in a few select threads only to be met with derogatory terms about mothers and children. Why is that okay? Would it be okay in any other section? There are all kinds of topics on this forum and many can apply to a wide range of users, this thread in particular I thought was something anyone could give their insight on. My mistake. 

Post # 153
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9183 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

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amanda3334455 :  So we should get rid of pregnancy and ttc boards too then right. Because why do those women need a space to complain about their choices and people’s asshole commentary on it. 

[content moderated for personal attack/threadjacking]

Post # 154
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Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: June 2014

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MarriedToMyWork : Anyway, personally I admire you women for being CFBC. I think that having a child is actually selfish in this day and age in this overpopulated world, and sometimes I wonder whether I’ve done the best thing for my son to bring him into a world full of terrorism… Also, being CFBC frees up a lot of people’s time (I imagine) to do other things, like work hard, volunteer, travel (which is really important because the more travelled people are the less xenophobic and the more well-rounded people they tend to be), etc.

I think the No Kids board can and should be used for a lot of interesting discussions between CFBC women, with some input from mothers too (why not), and neither party needs to be negative or criticize other people’s choices 🙂 It’s a shame these threads always end up de-railing, and it’s not just the fault of the mothers.. there are some CFBC bees who insits on criticizing any mother that posts on these boards (I don’t mean you).

 

Post # 155
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Buzzing bee
  • Wedding: June 2014

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j_jaye :  Nobody on the TTC and pregnancy boards is complaining about people who don’t have children, even when CFBC bees post their advice it’s taken on board and appreciated. That’s the difference.

Post # 156
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1987 posts
Buzzing bee

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amanda3334455 :  But roughly half of this conversation is not CF women having a conversation about and by them.  It is CF women explaining themselves to mothers or responding to concerns that mothers have raised.  It is an example of those in the status quo position redirecting a conversation back to a discussion of how the discussions that CF women try to start make them feel.  

Also, post #27 on page 2 basically says “no, really, mothers are the most tired of all people.”  And post #60 trots out the whole “you never know true love until you have kids” chestnut while simultaneously claiming not to.  That same poster then basically says, “mothers are the most tired” in post #89.

Of course, I also forgot that you were the person who was trying to shame CF women for not being willing to THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!! (while coming dangerously close to making the insulting implications that only families with children are real families) when it came to picking work hours (post #84), so…

Post # 157
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3107 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: March 2016 - Surfer\'s Beach, Grand Cayman

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j_jaye :  Nobody is saying to get rid of the No Kids section though, it was simply stated that some people found the language used in here to be hateful and offensive. Nobody in the ttc/pregnancy/parenting boards are using hateful or offensive language about CF people, and if they were they would be shut down so fast. 

Post # 158
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Sugar bee
  • Wedding: March 2016 - Surfer\'s Beach, Grand Cayman

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MarriedToMyWork :  So there were a few assholes or insensitive people that came in here, I’m sure that’s frustrating as hell and I don’t doubt that you’re sick of seeing that kind of commentary, but it doesn’t justify using language that insults an entire group. 

Post # 159
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9183 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

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peegee :  only to be met with derogatory terms about mothers and children. Why is that okay? Would it be okay in any other section?

Haha have you read the comments directed towards IL’s and men in general on this site? Or posters who have bad spelling/grammar? Or heaven forbid a stripper. Hardly think only mothers and children are on the recieving end of derogatory terms on this site. It’s the internet, it happens.

One thing I will say is that more often than not the namecalling usually only happens once someone who is not CFBC comes in and does the exact thing the current thread is complaining about. It is god damn frustrating.

Most CFBC women understand how hard raising kids is and give kudos to their mummy friends but  most of us are frustrated by society’s insistence that all mother’s are martyrs and need to be reveared and how so many women buy into that. Turn on the TV at dinner time and watch a few ads to just see how invasive in society it is. All women have a place in society and not just mother’s. Having a child does not mean that your needs in society, a friendship or in the workplace are more deserving to be met. 

For example I have chronic cancer and I can bet that I have been far more exhausted for longer periods of time than most parents but I don’t need to jump onto a new mums thread and tell her to stop complaining because she is so exhausted. She would be exhausted but it doesn’t diminish my exhaustion or the exhaustion of someone who is a carer for their disabled/chronically ill/dying partner or parent.

In my experience mothers make it a competition. Even amongst themselves. Maybe it is time we make mothers who behave like that accountable for the culture that they sustain/build. But no we can’t because of the whole mothers are martyas culture society has.

Post # 160
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1987 posts
Buzzing bee

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peegee :  CF women do not enjoy the things that come with making a status quo choice.  CF women are largely erased from conversations about women’s issues.  CF women are more likely to face alienation or ostracism in many religious communities (unless, of course, they reject sexual activity).  As the experience of CF women at WB shows, CF women struggle for the right to define conversations about themselves.  The suggestion that CF women are broken because they are uninterested in being mothers, while not as common or forceful as it once was, persists.  While the cultural portrayal of CF women has improved somewhat, I would argue that a lot of TV/movies/etc. still push the message that womanhood can’t be fully expressed unless motherhood is embraced.  

Again, just because CF women want a space to discuss these things doesn’t mean that we don’t acknowledge that mothers face judgment or have challenges, nor does it mean that we don’t stand in solidarity with mothers when it comes to fighting for good maternity leave, availability of childcare, and other things that should not be an issue in a civilized country.  However, our culture sends a lot of hurtful messages to CF women and it would be nice to have a chance to discuss how we have internalized or dealt with those messages without having those women who made the very choice that we are criticized for not making intrude to tell us how to have that conversation.  

Also, a lot of the economic advantage/power/freedom that CF women supposedly enjoy over mothers assumes that all CF women are wealthy enough to drop change on expensive meals, long vacations, and nice purses (often with the implication that this makes CF women selfish harpies since the good, moral mothers are selfless enough to sacrifice these things for their children).  However, plenty of CF women do not enjoy this type of economic privilege.

ETA: Again, I don’t use the language that you object to and I don’t particularly like it when others do.  However, I think that the fact that you object to that language while simultaneously dismissing what multiple women describe as a systemic pattern of mothers derailing our conversations as “a few insensitive people” is focusing on a speck in our eyes while denying you have a speck in yours. 

Post # 161
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9183 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

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peegee :  Actually they do. I was on the recieving end of such a comment when I gave solid advice (Never said anything bad just gave an example of a strategy I have seen discussed used in my professional work with kids)  about dealing with a situation. I was basically told since I was CFBC I wasn’t welcome. And it was never moderated or shut down. 

And I have seen it happen to more than one CFBC bee. In fact quite a few of us pm about how some boards make us feel unwelcomed.

Post # 162
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9183 posts
Buzzing Beekeeper

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amanda3334455 :  
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peegee :  This is the comment I was responding to

Funny how mothers aren’t allowed to complain about any difficulties of their lives by using memes, and yet CFBC women need an entire section of a forum to complain about any difficulties to do with their choices … Thé irony 😀

The bolded part is nothing more than a snide comment on the need for a no kids board. So yeah why do we need a ttc/pregnancy/parenting board for other women to complain about any difficulties to do with their choices? 

 

Post # 163
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3107 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: March 2016 - Surfer\'s Beach, Grand Cayman

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MarriedToMyWork :  
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j_jaye :  

The thing is that I’m with you on all of that, which is why I felt I could discuss these issues as well, but to be met with hostility and derogatory comments about mothers and children in a generalized sense is offensive to many, and to me does not add to your ability to discuss issues and vent, which I wholeheartedly support your right to do. 

I certainly don’t believe that CF women hold any power over women with children, but I also do not believe the opposite to be true. There are struggles for both groups, I won’t get into the other side of things because it’s not the place to do so but there are plenty of ways in which society holds mothers down as well, even though the cultural message generally is that motherhood is normal or expected or to be praised. 

I think these boards are very necessary, I just don’t understand why it needs to be made into an environment where anyone who isn’t CFBC is made to feel unwelcome. 

Post # 164
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3107 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: March 2016 - Surfer\'s Beach, Grand Cayman

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j_jaye :  Well that’s really shitty and I haven’t seen it myself personally, but if I did I would be the first to say something. 

Post # 165
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3107 posts
Sugar bee
  • Wedding: March 2016 - Surfer\'s Beach, Grand Cayman

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MarriedToMyWork :  Responding to your ETA

I’m not denying that it’s a pattern, I’ve seen it in other threads. I’m speaking specifically about this thread in which there were a few insensitive comments, all I’m trying to express is that there were plenty of supportive comments from people who aren’t CFBC as well, who may not appreciate some of the language used. That’s the only point I’ve ever tried to make. 

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